Gaff needs a projector now
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Wow! Pressure's on. first let me say typing this on my treo sucks so forgive me if it looks weird. second I am out in Vegas TDn a show. I will try to post tomorrow.
Christy, Eiki and Sanyo are basically the same unit. The Eikis have really dissapointed me lately. Faded colors, flashes to blue screen, "bubbles" appearing in the image, etc. The company I do a lot of work for has about a dozen X6(6.5K) and six or so LX3 (10K). VER just dropped off 4 Panasonics that I can post more about tomorrow.
It always impresses me about the quality of responses here. they all cover various issues. I will try to post more tomorrow but here are a few things:
the bigger projs. have mechanical shutters (dowsers). the pain is how to control them. try to get something networkable. serial control is so last year. try to go DLP. colors seem to hold up much better. make sure you can mount it the way you want to before you buy. There is no native cage for Eikis. this is a huge pain. there is an article on the net about "sizing for correct screen lumens". I have a copy that I will try to upload.
that's all my phone will allow for now.
kw
Thanks KW. So are you suggesting that going Sanyo might be a good way to get Christy quality at a lower price?
Well, not really. I am starting to loose faith in those series. Now, I am lucky that I never really have to consider cost. I got tired of looking at the Eikis and rented some Panasonic DLP (7K) locally. Of the 4, 2 had bad RGBHV BNC and one was DOA. Once we got them running though they looked MUCH better. Even the client noticed as soon as they entered the room with colorbars up.
It sounds like this may be on for long periods and that just tends to cook / fade the LCDs. If you have the money, try to go for the DLP. look at the operational expenses as well. That and web interface.
kw
It sounds like this may be on for long periods and that just tends to cook / fade the LCDs. If you have the money, try to go for the DLP. look at the operational expenses as well. That and web interface.
kw
I think that all the responses simply point out one thing, you need to define and focus on the requirements and goals before you get lost in the details.
It sounds like the throw (37') and screen size (14'x8') are already determined. And the application is more classroom, lecture and 'movie night' use than than theatrical effects or digital cinema. The lighting is controlled, but they would like to be able to use the projector with some general room lighting. Finally, and most important, there is a general budget defined. Since these are defined criteria or goals, they should probably be the primary considerations.
The screen size indicates a 16:9 native format. You could use some other format (4:3, 5:4, 15:9, 16:10) projector but you would then also have to consider that you wouldn't be using the entire image area of the projector for the screen image and thus would likely require a higher output projector. For example, a 4:3 native projector would actually be creating a 14'x10.5' image to fill the 14'x8' screen and thus would require about 130% the output of a native 16:9 projector in order to provide the same image brightness. A 1920x1080 native projector would be great, but this is not a home theatre and that is probably nowhere close to being in the budget. Think more along the lines of 1366x768 (WXGA). With a 16:9 projector, the 14'x8' screen and the comments regarding lighting, you're looking at wanting probably a minimum 4,000 to 5,000 lumens output.
The Panasonic PT-DW7000U is one of my favorites for this type of application and I have used it in exactly these types of situations but that and other comparable 3-chip DLP projectors are around $25,000 to $30,000 for the projector and lens, about two or more times the budget defined here. With that in mind, something more like the Sanyo PLV-WF10 with a LNS-S01A or LNS-W04 lens would seem to fit the application and budget.
Some general comments...For lecture/classroom use, LCD projectors are quite common. Serial control is still the standard in installed/integrated environments and many network control schemes only work with the manufacturer's software or provide limited control. Some Christie's are modified Sanyo's but it should be noted that this does not apply to all Christie projectors. Many DVD players, etc. do limit the analog component output to 720p but that is still HD and chances are that unless you have very large budget and a significant number of 1080p sources, then there is often little reason to worry about 1080p.
A couple of years ago DVI was the next great thing, now it's HDMI and pretty soon it will be something else. Meanwhile, analog RGBHV has no specific bandwidth limitation and can theoretically support any resolution. Most systems like this employ a switcher/scaler or seamless switcher to switch between the various sources and I would suggest that you run whatever you want into such a device and then run analog RGBHV out to the projector. You can even use CAT5 for that run if you want for a reasonable price (although in general I would still stay away from the cheap baluns).
It sounds like the throw (37') and screen size (14'x8') are already determined. And the application is more classroom, lecture and 'movie night' use than than theatrical effects or digital cinema. The lighting is controlled, but they would like to be able to use the projector with some general room lighting. Finally, and most important, there is a general budget defined. Since these are defined criteria or goals, they should probably be the primary considerations.
The screen size indicates a 16:9 native format. You could use some other format (4:3, 5:4, 15:9, 16:10) projector but you would then also have to consider that you wouldn't be using the entire image area of the projector for the screen image and thus would likely require a higher output projector. For example, a 4:3 native projector would actually be creating a 14'x10.5' image to fill the 14'x8' screen and thus would require about 130% the output of a native 16:9 projector in order to provide the same image brightness. A 1920x1080 native projector would be great, but this is not a home theatre and that is probably nowhere close to being in the budget. Think more along the lines of 1366x768 (WXGA). With a 16:9 projector, the 14'x8' screen and the comments regarding lighting, you're looking at wanting probably a minimum 4,000 to 5,000 lumens output.
The Panasonic PT-DW7000U is one of my favorites for this type of application and I have used it in exactly these types of situations but that and other comparable 3-chip DLP projectors are around $25,000 to $30,000 for the projector and lens, about two or more times the budget defined here. With that in mind, something more like the Sanyo PLV-WF10 with a LNS-S01A or LNS-W04 lens would seem to fit the application and budget.
Some general comments...For lecture/classroom use, LCD projectors are quite common. Serial control is still the standard in installed/integrated environments and many network control schemes only work with the manufacturer's software or provide limited control. Some Christie's are modified Sanyo's but it should be noted that this does not apply to all Christie projectors. Many DVD players, etc. do limit the analog component output to 720p but that is still HD and chances are that unless you have very large budget and a significant number of 1080p sources, then there is often little reason to worry about 1080p.
A couple of years ago DVI was the next great thing, now it's HDMI and pretty soon it will be something else. Meanwhile, analog RGBHV has no specific bandwidth limitation and can theoretically support any resolution. Most systems like this employ a switcher/scaler or seamless switcher to switch between the various sources and I would suggest that you run whatever you want into such a device and then run analog RGBHV out to the projector. You can even use CAT5 for that run if you want for a reasonable price (although in general I would still stay away from the cheap baluns).
Thanks Kw and Museav. Museav you did a nice job of nailing down my specific situation. Thanks.
I've got both BNC and Ethernet just about everywhere in the theater with a nice patch bay. The video guy has plans for a full video system that we may not be able to afford yet and I'm sure a switcher is part of that setup.
If we can't afford the whole video recording package right away, What do I need so that a renter can bring in a lap top, plug it in to something nearby, I patch the correct jack in the booth, turn on the projector and it's working. AGAIN thanks so much.
I've got both BNC and Ethernet just about everywhere in the theater with a nice patch bay. The video guy has plans for a full video system that we may not be able to afford yet and I'm sure a switcher is part of that setup.
If we can't afford the whole video recording package right away, What do I need so that a renter can bring in a lap top, plug it in to something nearby, I patch the correct jack in the booth, turn on the projector and it's working. AGAIN thanks so much.
To address the earlier comment about variable brightness, just about every projector has a brightness control and there is really no such things as a projector being too bright, you can always turn it down when needed. Many projectors offer a selectable, lower output 'eco' mode that reduces output, extends lamp life, lowers the operating costs and reduces the noise levels.
Another approach to this is to look at projectors with dual or quad lamp systems. Most of these can run on different combinations of lamps which addresses different brightness levels. Selecting the projector based on the single lamp output also allows for a tremendously longer effective lamp life as you can switch between lamps and when the brightness of both lamps alone decreases noticeably, use both lamps. However, perhaps the biggest advantage of multiple lamp projectors is redundancy, you can lose a lamp and maybe the brightness drops, but you can still continue. Thus a much reduced chance of having no projector during the middle of a guest lecturer or presentation.
While just about any image format can be displayed on any display resolution, it is most effective to match the display and source formats if not resolutions. This avoids using only part of a display's or projector's full image area (both resolution and brightness) for the actual image. The image and screen format for multipurpose facilities is getting interesting with there being an increasing rather than decreasing number of common formats. The standard 4:3 NTSC video format is still common while 16:9 widescreen has gained tremendously in popularity to support HD formats. However, the computer industry is off on their own with 5:4 SXGA and now 15:9 and 16:10 formats becoming common, especially for newer laptop displays. Some projection screen manufacturers are even starting to offer 16:10 format screens as standard sizes. Even terms like "WXGA" are no longer definitive as that could actually be defining a 15:9, 16:9 or 16:10 format resolution. The logic behind some of these formats is not completely clear or obvious, but it is greatly forcing a decision between whether video or computer is the primary source and is leading to an array of native projector resolutions. The point is that the 'best' format and resolution decision for projectors are apparently far from settled, especially for those used for applications involving both video and computer sources.
Another approach to this is to look at projectors with dual or quad lamp systems. Most of these can run on different combinations of lamps which addresses different brightness levels. Selecting the projector based on the single lamp output also allows for a tremendously longer effective lamp life as you can switch between lamps and when the brightness of both lamps alone decreases noticeably, use both lamps. However, perhaps the biggest advantage of multiple lamp projectors is redundancy, you can lose a lamp and maybe the brightness drops, but you can still continue. Thus a much reduced chance of having no projector during the middle of a guest lecturer or presentation.
While just about any image format can be displayed on any display resolution, it is most effective to match the display and source formats if not resolutions. This avoids using only part of a display's or projector's full image area (both resolution and brightness) for the actual image. The image and screen format for multipurpose facilities is getting interesting with there being an increasing rather than decreasing number of common formats. The standard 4:3 NTSC video format is still common while 16:9 widescreen has gained tremendously in popularity to support HD formats. However, the computer industry is off on their own with 5:4 SXGA and now 15:9 and 16:10 formats becoming common, especially for newer laptop displays. Some projection screen manufacturers are even starting to offer 16:10 format screens as standard sizes. Even terms like "WXGA" are no longer definitive as that could actually be defining a 15:9, 16:9 or 16:10 format resolution. The logic behind some of these formats is not completely clear or obvious, but it is greatly forcing a decision between whether video or computer is the primary source and is leading to an array of native projector resolutions. The point is that the 'best' format and resolution decision for projectors are apparently far from settled, especially for those used for applications involving both video and computer sources.
Well, "from any location" is a little open ended! If you have analog RGBHV cabling in place, then a computer interface, either installed or portable, may make sense. If all you have are a single video, audio and CAT5/5e/6 connections then you may have to look at UTP/CAT solutions. You need to be careful here as audio and video over CAT is not Ethernet or networked AV, it is point to point wiring. Network routers, switchers, PoE (Power over Ethernet), etc. are generally not compatible, you want a simple point-to-point cable path.
If you have a UTP patchbay so that you can create such a point-to-point connection, then you could have one patch point going to a dedicated AV over CAT5 receiver that feeds the projector or AV switcher, then use a matching transmitter in a portable fashion and patch the relevant termination to the receiver patch point. That may be the easiest method if you do not already have any dedicated AV provisions integrated in the room. On audio and video over CAT5, I tend to stick with reliable, active devices from manufacturers like Extron, FSR and Magenta Research. They're not the cheapest, but there is a reason these are leaders in the industry. Also, remember that some CAT5 systems have adjustments for peaking or gain and perhaps even skew, as if you patch from one point to another there may be some minor tweaking required to get the best image.
When I design auditorium or multipurpose theatre type systems, I usually try to incorporate somewhat dedicated AV floor boxes at typical downstage left, center and/or right locations that include computer, AV and control connections as well as mic connections that go to (or are split to) an automixer rather than the main console. The idea is to provide a 'presentation/lecture' setup that does not necessarily even require an operator. This is nice for new facilities, but can be difficult to add to an existing facility where it was not planned.
If you have a UTP patchbay so that you can create such a point-to-point connection, then you could have one patch point going to a dedicated AV over CAT5 receiver that feeds the projector or AV switcher, then use a matching transmitter in a portable fashion and patch the relevant termination to the receiver patch point. That may be the easiest method if you do not already have any dedicated AV provisions integrated in the room. On audio and video over CAT5, I tend to stick with reliable, active devices from manufacturers like Extron, FSR and Magenta Research. They're not the cheapest, but there is a reason these are leaders in the industry. Also, remember that some CAT5 systems have adjustments for peaking or gain and perhaps even skew, as if you patch from one point to another there may be some minor tweaking required to get the best image.
When I design auditorium or multipurpose theatre type systems, I usually try to incorporate somewhat dedicated AV floor boxes at typical downstage left, center and/or right locations that include computer, AV and control connections as well as mic connections that go to (or are split to) an automixer rather than the main console. The idea is to provide a 'presentation/lecture' setup that does not necessarily even require an operator. This is nice for new facilities, but can be difficult to add to an existing facility where it was not planned.
I'm not an A/V guy but have found projection duties getting dropped in my lap more and more often recently. I'll put in my two cents worth.
Audio: All of our A/V classrooms (and most larger venues) use projectors with multiple inputs. Usually a couple of VGA, a couple RCA video, S-video, whatever. They also have AUDIO inputs for each video input. They also have one audio output. When you select a particular video source, the audio switches automatically. This is nice because I only have to have one channel on my mixer in that venue for all the A/V stuff. Whatever the client has gets plugged in at the panel on the wall, they use the projector remote to select the source and control the volume. I don't even need to be there. None of my equipment gets touched. It requires some more cable to get all the audio wired up there, but what it saves in time later on makes it a worthwhile trade off in my mind.
Rear projection: I would recomend getting a projector capable of inverting the image for rear projection. Having the ability to rear project would have saved us a lot of trouble on several shows. Our projectors are capable but we don't have the translucent screens. Oh well..... It's a nice feature to have.
Best of luck
Just wanted to follow up on a previous post. I had the opportunity to speak with the company setting up in the next ballroom here in Vegas. They are using the Sanyo 10K projectior (same basic type as the Eiki I was commenting about on an earlier post).
They report none of the issues I have seen with the Eikis over the past year. Their projectors looked bright and clear with fairly good color. Not as good as the 7K DLPs we were using but still better then the 10K Eikis I normally use.
I will be on another show in a couple of weeks. I am TDing and another company is providing the video package. I think that they will either be using fiber or a new long distance DVI cable analogway.com
I'll post more info as I find it.
kw
They report none of the issues I have seen with the Eikis over the past year. Their projectors looked bright and clear with fairly good color. Not as good as the 7K DLPs we were using but still better then the 10K Eikis I normally use.
I will be on another show in a couple of weeks. I am TDing and another company is providing the video package. I think that they will either be using fiber or a new long distance DVI cable analogway.com
I'll post more info as I find it.
kw
I know one of the reps there really well. They seem to be a good company. I am using the Diventix line of gear more and more as well as the UltraVio scan converter. If you have any more questions we can take it offline. Don't want to sound like a product endorsement.
kw
kw
Wow, a heck of a lot of good information. I'm glad museav addressed the specific issue at hand. One point I'd like to add is since I assume that you are making a long term investment, my suggestion is to only consider DLP. With an LCD projector, your colors will shift over the life of the projector (roughly after 1500 hours of use). This is due to the fact that the filters are having to absorb some of the light while the DLP reflects the light. However, that being said, I would shoot for a three-chip vs a single-chip since the latter uses a color wheel that can also fade. LCOS is kind of a hybrid of DLP and LCD so I don't know if it suffers the same fate of LCDs. Canon makes a nice LCOS projector, but I don't think that you can choose the lens. I agree that the Panasonic PT-7000U is a nice projector, I had 40 or so in my inventory with few problems (all of them were rental projectors, not in house).
Since your screen is in a wide screen format, I would definitely choose a wide screen projector. If you choose a projector that has a standard 4:3 format, you should have a zoom lens to accomodate switching formats. If you want to fill the screen for a wide screen film, your projector will be overshooting the screen top and bottom but once you wanted to do a standard presentation, you would need it to in to be able to see the entire image. With a wide screen projector you would be able to eliminate this step (fixed focus lenses are cheaper than zoom lenses).
The choice of converting signal and using the Cat-5 (if possible) is your best option. Since you are doing a permanent installation, the long runs of copper for DVI may not be bad, but I found that in the rental world, the only long term way to send a long run of DVI is over fiber. Copper has too much of a tendency for some form of signal loss (even when using a DA) plus there is a high probablility of some interference.
If possible, I would recommend installing a scaler like the Presentation Pro by Barco. It will allow you to control what is going to the projector no matter what the presenter is feeding you.
Since your screen is in a wide screen format, I would definitely choose a wide screen projector. If you choose a projector that has a standard 4:3 format, you should have a zoom lens to accomodate switching formats. If you want to fill the screen for a wide screen film, your projector will be overshooting the screen top and bottom but once you wanted to do a standard presentation, you would need it to in to be able to see the entire image. With a wide screen projector you would be able to eliminate this step (fixed focus lenses are cheaper than zoom lenses).
The choice of converting signal and using the Cat-5 (if possible) is your best option. Since you are doing a permanent installation, the long runs of copper for DVI may not be bad, but I found that in the rental world, the only long term way to send a long run of DVI is over fiber. Copper has too much of a tendency for some form of signal loss (even when using a DA) plus there is a high probablility of some interference.
If possible, I would recommend installing a scaler like the Presentation Pro by Barco. It will allow you to control what is going to the projector no matter what the presenter is feeding you.
We finally decided on a Panasonic PT-DW5100U... just arrived today didn't have a chance to open the box.
As for the Powerpoint hook up. I got an Extron balum transmitter and receiver. It has a VGA plug in, converts to ethernet which I can patch directly to the catwalk. Then from there the receiver turns it into component video out. Really easy!
As for the Powerpoint hook up. I got an Extron balum transmitter and receiver. It has a VGA plug in, converts to ethernet which I can patch directly to the catwalk. Then from there the receiver turns it into component video out. Really easy!
I had a quick look at the brochure, it looks impressive.
There's one feature that could be of interest to theatre types.
It shows a "daylight mode" where it changes the colours to brighten them when the screen is being washed by daylight.
Gaff I was wondering how this feature would work when the screen is washed with stage light reflection. It would be interesting to see if it can punch through to give a sharp image.
Gaff if you get a chance to try this out could you let us know how it looks.
Thanks
There's one feature that could be of interest to theatre types.
It shows a "daylight mode" where it changes the colours to brighten them when the screen is being washed by daylight.
Gaff I was wondering how this feature would work when the screen is washed with stage light reflection. It would be interesting to see if it can punch through to give a sharp image.
Gaff if you get a chance to try this out could you let us know how it looks.
Thanks
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