House Lights

[FortMacTech]

Rewiring the house and adding new lights. Planning on going to pot lights, does anyone have experience with dimmable LED's?
What is the best way to have both wall control in the house and dimmer control from the booth? Wall control doesn't need to be dimmable so thinking of a relay set up.

 

[MaxS]

My guess would be that LEDs wouldn't be bright enough for house lighting, and if they were they would probably be on the expensive side. The most common solutions for house lights involve a Unison set up, especially when an ETC system is already in place. Installing such a system would involve adding or repurposing dimmers to be controlled by Unison Smartlink or Paradigm. Dimmers could be the Sensor, Smartlink, or of another family, and you would be able to control the them via DMX from the board when not held at another value by Unison and its wall stations (Highest Takes Precedence). There are many ways of configuring a Unison system, and first it would be necessary to determine your needs and what type of system riser would best fit your current venue/installation. Unison itself may be overkill for your application, however, and simpler solutions do exist.

A brochure for Unison Smartlink can be found here.

 

[Dionysus]

The solution I whipped up for the community theatre here is a switch that runs a relay that changes the house lights between the dimmer circuit and normal switches and wall dimmers in the house.
The relay switches the "hot" and "neutral" both since the "dimmers" and "house switches" are fed off of different panels and transformers.

Since I had the parts anyways, and the conductors were already in place (going to a patch panel in the booth) the project was 100% free.

I must add that for something like this you should probably get an electrician to do the work. I was working there anyways as an electrical apprentice, fixing a few problems and we had the Permit cover this as well (which I donated my time to do, to make my life easier for shows since I am also the Head Technician for the Theatre).

Before I installed this "switch" one of the previous self-proclaimed Technical Directors had run some SJ cable out of the patch bay, and had connectors on the ends. The "switch over" was done by changing which female ends the male ends were plugged into. This was done by a few people under load, which was starting to damage the connectors.

It was certainly cheaper than a Unison system.

 

[JChenault]

LED's have a number of advantages over incandescent lights in house lights.

1 - (and most important) they do not burn out. If you do not have easy and convenient access to the fixture, this is worth a LOT. You don't have to drag out ladders or scaffolding to change out the lamps from below.
2 - They use less energy than incandescent. They also produce less heat.
3 - Depending on your electric utility, you can sometimes get a rebate from them for installing energy efficient lighting.
4 - The form factor and heat produced from the bulb let you design some interesting fixtures that you could not do in incandescent lamps.

The downside is initial cost. If you price out the entire lifetime of the fixture, deduct the cost of dimmers, lamp replacements, scaffold time to change lamps, etc, you will likely find that the total cost of the LED is equivalent or less than an incandescent system.

It's not clear to me from the OP what a Pot light is - or how much remodel you are anticipating. I have seen LED Par lamps ( basically a number of 2 or 3 watt LED's housed in something the shape of a PAR). Elation sells one that is stated to be equivalent to a 70 watt halogen lamp for about $100. Elation Professional - Professional Lighting Products The spec sheet says it can dim from 20% to 100%. I have not used this lamp, I just saw it in the catalog.

If you really want to be able to dim the fixture, you need to do more than replace the incandescent bulb with an LED equivalent. Most LED fixtures that I am aware of use some form of DMX for control. You might send that DMX straight to the fixture, or to a box that combines power and signal to the fixtures. The question then becomes how to generate the DMX, and most companies that I am aware of that provide LED fixtures also provide control systems.

One company that I have used ( Color Kinetics - now owned by Philips LED Lighting Systems - Philips Color Kinetics ) has a pretty good line of fixtures in either RGB or White. They provide control systems as well. It is probably easier to pick a manufacturer, and use their control system than trying to mix and match.

You might talk with your local theatre supplier. If they are not knowledgeable my local supplier PNTA | Lighting & Sound Services could probably give you a quote.

Good luck with your project. IMHO we are on the cusp of a revolutionary change in general illumination ( house lights, etc ) from incandescent to LED.

 

[Malabaristo]

I'd like to emphasize the 20% to 100% range that JChenault mentioned. When looking for houselights, you're most likely going to be looking at fixtures designed for commercial architectural use. The expectation of dimming performance in that setting is very different from what someone with a theatrical lighting mindset would expect.

While it's entirely possible to dim LED's very well, pretty much all power line dimmable LED products will perform no better than fluorescent fixtures (which is to say pretty poorly in comparison to incandescent). To get good performance there needs to be some sort of low voltage control involved.

If you're concerned about dimming performance, then I would highly reccomend getting a sample of whatever products you're thinking about using and seeing whether they really meet your expectations.

 

[SteveB]

Rewiring the house and adding new lights. Planning on going to pot lights, does anyone have experience with dimmable LED's?
What is the best way to have both wall control in the house and dimmer control from the booth? Wall control doesn't need to be dimmable so thinking of a relay set up.

One BIG thing to take into account, if you haven't already done so, is what portion of the "house" lighting is part of the emergency lighting system ?. Or do you have a separate system - I.E. stand alone battery operated lights to provide for audience egress in an emergency or a separate incandescent or fluorescent system off a generator ?

I always get a bit concerned when I read about folks doing modifications or upgrades to the lighting in the audience chamber, as there are specific electrical and life safety issues that need to be taken into account when doing modifications. Typical would be switching to LED fixtures and a DMX control system, that might no longer respond to any auxilary control systems off a generator, as example. Any such system in place, changes what and how you plan the upgrades.

Just something to think about.

Steve B.

 

[mstaylor]

JChenault:
I took pot lights to mean recessed lights. It will be interesting to find out if that is what he really meant.
SteveB:
Good point about the emergency potion of the houselights. There can be provisions made to overcome the problem but it is essential to make the allowances.

 

[Bobby]

The most common solutions for house lights involve a Unison set up, especially when an ETC system is already in place. .

Id like to second that. The system seems to be very user-friendly and it allows to lock-out access to the wall switches during a show. I personally use it regularly.
I would also standard incandescent lights for the house. I don't think the LEDs would be bright enough.

 

[tjrobb]

I find that recessed lighting = can lights = pot lights.

Another issue with LED's is premature failure. Say you install them figuring you won't need to access them easily, then half the LED's in a unit fail or shift color. Next thing you know you have to build scaffolding in your house. Don't know the statistics of failures, but it is something to consider. I like knowing that I can (easily) change the lamp and get back to the original installation spec's - call me old-fashioned.

As above, color is something to think of. Depending on 'binning' and quality control, after installation you may notice a few of the LED cans are a slightly different color than the rest. Having a can or two being more green or magenta than the rest might get kind of annoying after a while.

Note that the above is why I am a big fan of halogen PAR lighting for a house.

 

[mstutzman]

The solution I whipped up for the community theatre here is a switch that runs a relay that changes the house lights between the dimmer circuit and normal switches and wall dimmers in the house.
The relay switches the "hot" and "neutral" both since the "dimmers" and "house switches" are fed off of different panels and transformers.

Since I had the parts anyways, and the conductors were already in place (going to a patch panel in the booth) the project was 100% free.

I must add that for something like this you should probably get an electrician to do the work. I was working there anyways as an electrical apprentice, fixing a few problems and we had the Permit cover this as well (which I donated my time to do, to make my life easier for shows since I am also the Head Technician for the Theatre).

Before I installed this "switch" one of the previous self-proclaimed Technical Directors had run some SJ cable out of the patch bay, and had connectors on the ends. The "switch over" was done by changing which female ends the male ends were plugged into. This was done by a few people under load, which was starting to damage the connectors.

It was certainly cheaper than a Unison system.

We just got rid of a relay system like this, it never worked correctly. Even when switching over without a load they would half latch or slow, and eventually feed power from two sources, intern spiking back into my dimmer cards and frying the SCR.

If you have Sensors, the best solution I have found is a sensor net box, and preset switch. We have battery emergency lights so the later isnt really an issue.

 

[Malabaristo]

If you have Sensors, the best solution I have found is a sensor net box, and preset switch. We have battery emergency lights so the later isnt really an issue.

The Sensor net box is just a small network switch and patch panel inside of a wall-mount box. It's only required if you have multiple Sensor+ racks and no other lighting network. It doesn't directly add anything in the way of preset control.

I think what you're referring to is a Smartlink Station connected to a Sensor+ rack? Either that or I'm just confused about what you were describing.

 

[wah0808]

There have been several posts saying the LED wouldn't be bright enough. Our church recently went to the Philips Color Kinetics lighting in an installation that has the light bouncing off the celing and even then it's plenty bright even in when just using one of the three colours.

 

[headcrab]

We have the relay system too, but it turns out that the relays are only rated to be used on one phase, so as the armature moved back to the stable position, it would strike an arc with the NO contact and short out the two phases. The first time that happened it tripped the feeder breaker on our building switchboard and of course, fried the dimmer. Sounds like you had the same issue, mstutzman.

 

[MNicolai]

There havev been several posts saying the LED wouldn't be bright enough. Our church recently went to the Philips Color Kinetics lighting in an installation that has the light bouncing off the celing and even then it's plenty bright even in when just using one of the three colours.

Yup, and if those are the Colorblast fixtures, you're spending at least $800 a pop for the small versions of them. They aren't practical for someone wanting to replace all of their house lighting.

LED's are plenty bright, but what it comes down to is how many lumens/$$$ you're getting. You could light the room with flashlights if you wanted to buy tons of them; the same principle goes for LED's. Some solutions are possible, but that doesn't make them practical. Color temperature and the smoothness of dimming are also fairly important.

The same goes for Selador. Very bright, very full of colors, but also extremely expensive.

 

[mstutzman]

The Sensor net box is just a small network switch and patch panel inside of a wall-mount box. It's only required if you have multiple Sensor+ racks and no other lighting network. It doesn't directly add anything in the way of preset control.

I think what you're referring to is a Smartlink Station connected to a Sensor+ rack? Either that or I'm just confused about what you were describing.

Sorry, my bad. You are correct.

 

[icewolf08]

Sorry, my bad. You are correct.

Which is all well and good, but you can't just throw in a Smartlink station, you need to have a Unison or Paradigm processor in your system to handle your architectural controls.

 

[Dionysus]

We have the relay system too, but it turns out that the relays are only rated to be used on one phase, so as the armature moved back to the stable position, it would strike an arc with the NO contact and short out the two phases. The first time that happened it tripped the feeder breaker on our building switchboard and of course, fried the dimmer. Sounds like you had the same issue, mstutzman.

Sounds like the wrong gear was used in both headcrab and mstutzman's switching systems. With the proper equipment it is impossible to have this situation.
You have to be very careful when working with multiple power sources.

 

[epimetheus]

Which is all well and good, but you can't just throw in a Smartlink station, you need to have a Unison or Paradigm processor in your system to handle your architectural controls.

Or a Smartpack or Smartswitch with a Smartlink power supply.

 

[JChenault]

Yup, and if those are the Colorblast fixtures, you're spending at least $800 a pop for the small versions of them. They aren't practical for someone wanting to replace all of their house lighting.

LED's are plenty bright, but what it comes down to is how many lumens/$$$ you're getting. You could light the room with flashlights if you wanted to buy tons of them; the same principle goes for LED's. Some solutions are possible, but that doesn't make them practical. Color temperature and the smoothness of dimming are also fairly important.

The same goes for Selador. Very bright, very full of colors, but also extremely expensive.

All you say is true BUT - it's really lumens/$$$ for the life of the building calculated to present value. IE you have to include all of the costs. Maintenance can be very expensive. If I am in a location where in order to change my incandescent house lighting I need to get a three man crew to work for four hours, or set up scaffolding in the seats, etc - it is likely that an LED system would be cost effective. Some electric utilities will offer to subsidize LED fixtures as more energy efficient devices.

I'm not saying that LED house lighting always makes sense - but it makes sense more often that you might think it does.

 

[MNicolai]

All you say is true BUT - it's really lumens/$$$ for the life of the building calculated to present value. IE you have to include all of the costs. Maintenance can be very expensive. If I am in a location where in order to change my incandescent house lighting I need to get a three man crew to work for four hours, or set up scaffolding in the seats, etc - it is likely that an LED system would be cost effective. Some electric utilities will offer to subsidize LED fixtures as more energy efficient devices.

I'm not saying that LED house lighting always makes sense - but it makes sense more often that you might think it does.

I don't disagree at all. I've got a retrofit right now where installing LED's will save us at least $15k in the short run, and much more in the long run. I don't think there are many situations though where the costs of installing LED's of the Color Kinetics quality and price will find even an eventual return-on-investment. That said, I am a bit surprised that CK, or anyone that I know of, hasn't yet designed a product that would work well for house lighting, with self-correcting CRI and the ability to control color temp in the amber/white range. When that happens, I speculate that someone's making a fortune.