Conventional Fixtures How do you make your Fresnel lamps last??

[techieman33]

I haven't seen it mentioned here, but Altman now makes 65q's that take an HPL. It may be worth seeing if they well sell just the reflector assembly, and if it's any better than the kit being talked about in this thread.

 

[Michael K]

I haven't seen it mentioned here, but Altman now makes 65q's that take an HPL. It may be worth seeing if they well sell just the reflector assembly, and if it's any better than the kit being talked about in this thread.

I'm pretty sure the kit is the reflector assembly from Altman as the part numbers listed on their site here match the ones BMI listed on the page here.

 

[techieman33]

I'm pretty sure the kit is the reflector assembly from Altman as the part numbers listed on their site here match the ones BMI listed on the page here.

Does look that way. I thought it may be different since there is nothing on BMI's site that says it's an altman part. Also from the way other people were saying the fitment wasn't that great, and the beam not very smooth. I would have expected altman to get things like that worked out correctly.

 

[Michael K]

Does look that way. I thought it may be different since there is nothing on BMI's site that says it's an altman part. Also from the way other people were saying the fitment wasn't that great, and the beam not very smooth. I would have expected altman to get things like that worked out correctly.

It's possible they changed the fixture housing when they added the HPL option, which would cause such issues in older fixtures.

 

[Scenemaster60]

They did not change the fixture housing. I ordered a couple of them from BMI last fall and found that they had not re-worked anything.

 

[ship]

A Parnel is not a Fresnel and never will be!

"I have full welding capabilities in my scene shop.... could we put a "spot" of weld onto the 1. current "contact" in the base to enlarge it and tighten the gap up between lamp and base contact?? It seems like that would be pretty easy."

Bad idea, really bad.

"get a Dremel and a couple different shaped grinding stones and clean up the surface of the contact in each cruddy lamp base."

Almost as bad in at least a concept of re-surfacing the lamp base socket.
with some fine sandpaper too,
Really fine sandpaper and not really proper cleaners/lubricants mentioned specifically as it’s not in-general a thing to refer to.

"To bring it back to bad sockets... Short of replacing your sockets, you can try removing any carbon buildup (from previous lamps' arcing) in the old sockets with a bit of abrasive - emery cloth might work for you - and you might also consider trying a conductive paste (make sure it's temperature-appropriate!) to aid in minimizing future lamp/socket arcing as well. "

Close to concept in also remembering Craig’s De-Oxit but not by way of advice.
Ok... Bold is for a reason.

In the past I has worked on hundreds of 6" Fresnel lighting fixtures and posted about how to “save” and or service call them. 90% of the time such lighting fixtures with similar bad lamp sockets can be saved - no matter the brand. And within a few degrees of beam spread, every Fresnel is a Fresnel = no matter the brand.
Put in the work to save the lamp socket and wiring in the proper way as posted in the past on this website in specifically how to properly, or replace it with a new one. Note new lamp sockets most likely won’t have the same mounting holes as your old ones, so it will be a trick to properly align. Again... 90% of what thought to be bad in lamp socket can be saved and adding solder or welding is a really bad thing to do.. You can restore back to factory new condition and better with wiring.

Do I need to re-post a new post on how to re-wire/service etc? Send me your worst Fresnel and I will bring it back to factory spec. and better with a 90% chance it’s lamp socket is perfectly fine- just needed a little TLC. And I will re-present in post how to be the proper costodian for your own Fresnels.

Sorry, of the few dozen Fresnels thru the ages I personally own and well over a hundred I have worked on - 90% of bases can be saved and they are all up to factory spec.

Only have a c.1934 box spot “farm fresh” that I’m yet to tinker with amongst other projects and nothing yet so far for work taking much time. I’ll take on the challenge of these bad Fresnels, and or given if you want to travel to Northern Illinois so as to be taught to fix your Fresnels... I’ll train you. PM me.

Your Fresnel - no matter the brand can be saved, or will be cheap to fix. I’ll train and provide the parts in educating you. PM me if up to the challenge.

The rest of the posts.... to shame in above posts in how to safe such sockets and recommendations. The upgrade kit for a Fresnel is interesting and cool - possibly applicable in simplifying things. Comparing lamps above for the upgrade isn’t accurate in converting lamp to lamp is also how high it sits in the lamp socket which at times can be smaller. It’s a question of filament center to the plentium or lamp carriage.

Overall... really on this well discussed and covered subject from the past, I see above advice bad and sort of understood in concept. Sorry for the industry if what was a few years ago common knowledge listed on this website in specifically how to fix this easy problem, and is lost again. Really a shame, Fresnels are a really easy light to maintain or fix no-matter the age.
Again, send me the worst light and I’ll teach on-line how to for the website. Or better given local, PM me and in a you visit me with your lights, I’ll teach you how to fix them.. Might be some on the forum that have had similar visits in instruction. Your lights don't need replacement, you just need some training in how to care for them.

 

[Scenemaster60]

I'm not sure I that understood much of that....

What I will say is this: I have resurfaced dozens of fresnel sockets and lamp bases with a dremel tool over the last few years and it buys time and saves money.
Is it the ideal fix? No. Does it work? Yes. Is is inherently dangerous OR in some way unsafe? Not in my experience.

Medium prefocus sockets are not inexpensive, about $20 a pop and a lamp with a cruddy contact often has many hours left in it as well. Replacing a socket in a fresnel is a time-consuming process. I have done it. I would estimate that it takes about 30 minutes IF you don't have to re-drill the mounting holes. If you have to do that, add another 15 minutes.

Two summers ago, I resurfaced about 20 fresnels at a local high school that were laying in a corner because they were "busted" (that was their term). There was no money for new sockets and there were a few new BTN lamps in the cabinet. I got them all working by resurfacing them. When I returned last summer I only had to re-do 5 of them. In an ideal world, I would have dumped them and bought new ParNels.

Is a ParNel a fresnel? No. It's often better, depending on the application.

In my experience (and I design about 20-25 shows a year in over a dozen venues) they are better IF your throw is going to be over 15 feet.
When I encounter a venue with trims of 18-22' and I can choose between a ParNel with a 750 watt lamp and a 6" fresnel with a 1k lamp, I will ALWAYS choose the ParNel for its punch and better beam control without needing a HH or barn doors. Also, I find it easier to blend the ParNel beam with a frosted Source 4 ellipsoidal when I'm focusing.

 

[BillConnerFASTC]

Is is inherently dangerous OR in some way unsafe? Not in my experience.

.

Well - unless you don't disconnect the fixture.

 

[Scenemaster60]

You got me there, Bill!

 

[BillConnerFASTC]

You got me there, Bill!

When the cardboard sleeve on a fan belt cautions you to stop the engine before installing, it seems you can't be too careful.

 

[DavidNorth]

We are getting way off topic, but I just can't help posting this.....for Bill.

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Sockets are much cheaper than new fixtures, and this helps lamps last. Also, always check voltage at the outlet with an RMS meter, the dimmer at full, and a load on the circuit. If you are above 120V, then you need a tech to come in and retrim the dimmers. Don't move the electrics when the lamps are hot, and don't let scenery bump into the fixtures when hot.

Resurfacing the contacts in the socket is not going to last long, in my experience. But please do not reuse a lamp that has been damaged in a bad socket, unless you resurface it as well.

Buy new sockets and expect to do so every couple of years.

David

 

[gafftapegreenia]

The only problem is that the sockets in current production DO NOT have a flat contact. The current sockets have a sort of cup shaped contact.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Scenemaster60]

Resurfacing the contacts in the socket is not going to last long, in my experience. But please do not reuse a lamp that has been damaged in a bad socket, unless you resurface it as well.

Buy new sockets and expect to do so every couple of years.

I agree with you, David.

I also forgot to mention that I always resurface the lamp "button" as well. I also NEVER put a new lamp into a resurfaced socket OR a resurfaced lamp in a "clean" socket. I keep the "infected" lamps and sockets together until I have the time and money to replace them. I realize it's a stopgap measure, but sometimes the show must go on and we know what most theater budget look like.

 

[BillConnerFASTC]

We are getting way off topic, but I just can't help posting this.....for Bill.

Well, I wire panels hot. I can't find a clip but was a time electricians used their hand to test circuit - just be sure you touch and hold neutral or ground first, before hot, unless you know you're insulated.

 

[ship]

McMaster Carr #7437k15 Electrical Contact Cleaner w. Lubericant 16oz. Spray. Always clean and coat your bright work.

http://www.mcmaster.com/#4630a13/=121lwb9 a line of bits I like to use along with a silicone abrasive grinding wheel to re-surface lamp base contacts and evev sharpen knives. I use Silicone abrasive fier wheels on right angle grinders for re-surfacing shutters and much more in mirror finish results.

Sorry if not clear above but in seeing above posts about "Dremmel" Grinding wheels etc. - welding, I got a little concerned in that I have extensively posted about this subject on this forum.

I work on gear from 10Kw thru.... small in size. Was a time when Altman discontinued all of their 2Kw ant 5Kw lamp sockets. Problem was they didn't offer a replacement for months, and even with the upgrade, there was design problems. I had a lot of gear at that time using such lamp sockets involved - had to figure out how to fix them. I use these basic bit choice and material solutions on everything from Mole Richardson FAY fixture lamp base contacts thru any medium Pre-focus lamp contacts.

Obviously if a socket is toast or it's spring tension is weak or bent, replace it. Fix it main concept. But fixing it properly is the difference from what advice I have seen.

Again an offer, I'll fix the lamp sockets and teach. Than after fixed a question of how long they last given yearly service call's.

 

[TJCornish]

Well, I wire panels hot. I can't find a clip but was a time electricians used their hand to test circuit - just be sure you touch and hold neutral or ground first, before hot, unless you know you're insulated.

Your post is unclear to me, so it probably is to others as well. Just to remove any potential for misapplication of what you wrote (I'm sure you know this stuff):

1. If you're not qualified and authorized, anything that requires a tool to access or connect is off limits for you. Using a tool breaks the "cord and plug" rule, and is a pretty hard dividing line. I work a lot in the audio world. Lots of folks want to "tie in" their gear to the panel using various methods. None of them are acceptable without venue permission, qualifications, and often formal licensing.
2. Touching bare wires or bus bars or any other potentially energized electrical part is a great way to candidate for this year's Darwin Award. Ideally test with a non-contact voltage tester and then follow up with a digital volt meter to be sure the equipment is fully de-energized.
3. Always wear insulating gloves.
4. The last thing you want is a current path through your torso. Touching ground or neutral with one hand and then touching a hot wire with the other hand is extremely dangerous - much more dangerous than touching both wires with the same hand. When possible, keep one hand in your pocket.
5. The larger the electrical service, the faster you become a piece of over-cooked bacon affixed to the wall opposite the electrical equipment in the event of an arc flash. You might get a little shock or burn if you're working on a 20A circuit in a junction box 100' from the panel. If you have a mishap in a breaker panel or piece of switchgear, the resulting explosion will probably kill you unless you're wearing a full arc-flash suit.

 

[Scenemaster60]

TJ - I think Bill was making a joke in reference to David North's post.

 

[TJCornish]

TJ - I think Bill was making a joke in reference to David North's post.

Agreed - just wanted to remove any doubt for future readers.

 

[DELO72]

You may also want to try out the FLK [300hrs] (or FLK/X [2000hrs]) lamp - it's almost a half-step from both the HPL and FEL lamps - simple, central single coil filament, but no heatsink base. 575W, with similar output to HPL 575s. If you need a bit more punch, look at the 750W EHF. Depending on your supplier, these can be cheaper to equip than the HPLs, although from what I can tell that small margin is shrinking.

I would strongly suggest you do not do this. FLK & FEL are CC8 Coils. They will not collect the light or project it at all as well as the C13 (or even C13D) design of the BTL family of lamps. It's apples and oranges. You need to use the right filament for the reflector. Go with GLC/GLA (or GLD/GLE for 750W) if you use the converter for the most apples to apples change. Don't go with FLK/FEL/EHG, etc.

 

[DELO72]

I'm not sure I that understood much of that....

What I will say is this: I have resurfaced dozens of fresnel sockets and lamp bases with a dremel tool over the last few years and it buys time and saves money.
Is it the ideal fix? No. Does it work? Yes. Is is inherently dangerous OR in some way unsafe? Not in my experience.

Medium prefocus sockets are not inexpensive, about $20 a pop and a lamp with a cruddy contact often has many hours left in it as well. Replacing a socket in a fresnel is a time-consuming process. I have done it. I would estimate that it takes about 30 minutes IF you don't have to re-drill the mounting holes. If you have to do that, add another 15 minutes.

Two summers ago, I resurfaced about 20 fresnels at a local high school that were laying in a corner because they were "busted" (that was their term). There was no money for new sockets and there were a few new BTN lamps in the cabinet. I got them all working by resurfacing them. When I returned last summer I only had to re-do 5 of them. In an ideal world, I would have dumped them and bought new ParNels.

Sorry. Ship is 100% right on this one. I used to resurface sockets all the time, and yes, it works SHORT TERM-- but here's the rub-- as you point out in your post above, "I only had to re-do 5 of them...." That's the issue. Every time you scrape a socket "shiny" again, the corrosion you are removing is actually the top layer of metal. You are increasing the gap between the contacts each time you resurface it. You know what leads to arc-out? Poor connection and distance between the electrical contacts. So basically you are making the socket have a worse electrical connection with each "repair". One the socket is corroded, your best bet is to simply buy and install a new socket. Or...you can sand it down, and go through lamp after lamp as you kill them more quickly each time your socket arcs out with ever increasing instances due to the increasing space between the lamp pins and the socket contact.