ION is almost here!

[farmerjo1111]

The Phone Remote is not going to be enabled at this time on the ION. The listing of that feature on the website should be removed shortly. As of right now the Universal wings are meant for Submasters only. I will pass on the comment about the Wings being more than just subs. If you have any questions I will be more than happy to help you.

Jeff: What Rep firm are you with.

Dustin Strobush
ETC Systems Estimator.

 

[SteveB]

The Phone Remote is not going to be enabled at this time on the ION. The listing of that feature on the website should be removed shortly. As of right now the Universal wings are meant for Submasters only. I will pass on the comment about the Wings being more than just subs. If you have any questions I will be more than happy to help you.
Jeff: What Rep firm are you with.
Dustin Strobush
ETC Systems Estimator.

I'm going to rant a bit.

I 'dunno, maybe it's just me, but I have to wonder where ETC is going with this, based on what I've read here, some of it from folks with obvious inside info. And I may well just need to await more - and correct information.
I see a website with a product described with assorted features. I have no problems if they decide it's too early to release certain features, such as phone remote. But the description is prominent in listing "Providing fully integrated control of conventional and moving lights". It goes on to describe "4x1000 pallettes - intensity, focus, color, beam" as well as having 4 pageable encoders right on the desktop. If this little unit isn't a baby Eos, then when are we going to see one ?.

I for one, do not need a replacement for a Microvision. I need a replacement for an Express with Emphasis, which is just barely a year old and has not lived up to the expectations as described on the website.

I hope that's not the case here with Ion.

For someone to tell me that the add-on fader wings will not run playbacks, or that the Ion is not going to allow multiple cue stack playback via those faders, seems to me a deleberate dumbing down of what could be a very hot product. Perhaps allowing one fader wing of the users choice (1x10, 2x20 etc...) to be actual playbacks, with any other fader wings attached only allowing submasters, might allow the desk to offer just enough functionality without competing with other in-house products, but in any case, SOME form of multiple playbacks is essential for this console to have any use controlling ML's, which is how it's described.

I most emphatically do NOT see Congo, or Congo Jr. as the middle of the product line, placed between Eos and Ion. The Congo syntax and OS is simply too different a product and if ETC decides this is so, then they just lost a customer here for what could be 3 replacement consoles for existing Express's, as well as new console(s) for a $75 million PAC building with 2 new theaters.

I also have issues with using a $20 cordless telephone as a remote focus unit, so perhaps that needs to get re-thought as well, or maybe I'm missing something and it's an amazing idea - I just don't see it. A dedicated RFU, wired or not (I prefer wireless) makes my life much easier when the bloody buttons on the RFU are duplicating what's on the actual console. Please don't tell me I have to teach a newbie that the Flash button on the phone really means Macro. Or that Re-Dial goes to Blind. Sorry, but I don't need hidden functionality.

Note, that as I commented on in an earlier post, I am aware that all this is putting the cart way before the horse, but cannot help but feel that ETC is way late on getting replacements out there for Express and Expression, and I wonder if they've been listening......

Steve Bailey
Brooklyn College
Rant over

 

[Jezza]

I'm going to have to side with you on almost all of this Steve.

I don't need a replacement Microvision either. To me, the console looks and sounds much like a HOG II with out the ability of multiple cue stacks and some of the great functionality of the EOS.

This console SHOULD fill up the void that is created by discontinuing the Expression line -- when all is said that is its goal. But, it should also be a mini EOS with perhaps less output capability, no internal touch screens, and less playbacks, but basically running the same OS and utilizing the same controls and power.

I for one, as I'm sure others would like as well, to be able to move seamlessly between the Eos and the Ion and the Congo and Congo Jr. I would like it to all behave the same way, all be the same OS (relatively) however just with different hardware setups and different features. I don't need a board that claims to be a ML board with encoders and pallets and playback wings with only the same functionality of an Expression console.

Expression with Emphasis was an upgrade to address the problems and the faults of the Expression line when trying to evoke more and control and more power out of the console. Why build the ION based around the EOS, and then strip it down so much to the point where it is non functional?

Ok, so the target market is schools, churches, and community theater. How often do they need 2048 channels of DMX, 4 encoder wheels, and the options for touch screens and playback wings. Don't get me wrong, its great to have those options when you want to, and when the budget at those venues can support it, but more often then not I find those types of venues barely have it in their budgets for gel and bulbs, much less ML rentals. In that case, they would be much better off with the Express line which is catered to exactly their needs.

The phone RFU thing: come on. Yes, excellent, cheap solution for schools or churches or community theater. But if ETC wants to market this to professionals, and claim that it is "road worth" then make a real RFU for it. Why not just use the same WRFU for the EOS? Oh wait, EOS doesn't have one...

 

[gafftaper]

First Steve I really respect you're opinions and I'm definitely not trying to start a flame war here.

However, I really have to disagree with you on Congo. I've heard a lot of disgust at Congo from many people, not just you, and I really don't get it. It's a very cool console with a lot of features that fit very firmly between Eos and Ion. But you have to sit down and take an hour to learn a different programing syntax... give it a week to master. BIG DEAL! I can't believe how many people I've talked to who think that a change programing syntax is worth completely disregarding an entire product? If you decide to switch to Strand, HES, GrandMA... your going to have to go through a similar learning curve anyway. I say judge Congo on what it can or can't do. Ignoring it because if it's language syntax is a big mistake.

On the other hand I have to completely agree with you on that telephone remote. It's really amateur and silly compared to what Strand has put in their PDA remote. Yeah there's $1000 price difference but come on. Why not make a interface that works with a standard Palm PDA. You could sell it for $500 with the PDA, or a couple hundred for those who already own one. Don't cut corners on the software, allow full cue recording and playback on the PDA... they have the horsepower to handle most of it. ETC's approach of ... you just spent $15,000 on a console, now buy a $10 phone and you're all set just makes no sense to me.

 

[SteveB]

However, I really have to disagree with you on Congo. I've heard a lot of disgust at Congo from many people, not just you, and I really don't get it. It's a very cool console with a lot of features that fit very firmly between Eos and Ion. But you have to sit down and take an hour to learn a different programing syntax... give it a week to master. BIG DEAL! I can't believe how many people I've talked to who think that a change programing syntax is worth completely disregarding an entire product? If you decide to switch to Strand, HES, GrandMA... your going to have to go through a similar learning curve anyway. I say judge Congo on what it can or can't do. Ignoring it because if it's language syntax is a big mistake. .

I totally agree that Congo and Jr. are terrific consoles and stand on there own meritts. I also should sit down and play with one before writing off the idea.

The problem is that the ETC is the 800 lbs gorilla in the industry and I feel like the marketing department is trying to sell me a bag of goods by placing Congo and Jr. in the same product line as Eos and now Ion.

What has been needed out of Middleton, and what EVERYBODY has been hoping for, for far too long now, is a Strand like console line, with the same OS and syntax from the $40,000 top-of-the-line to the 2 scene preset basic console. Congo, for all it's design advantages, is still a Swedish lighting console and I cannot think that a lot of facility managers are going to want a basic Ion-Vision style, simple cue-ing console in a black box, then a Congo with RPN in the 500 seat, then an Eos in the 2500 seat rental hall. I have that kind of facility and I'm not doing that. Congo basically breaks the continuity in the learning curve for users and Ion-Vision is seemingly (and currently with limited information) too basic for many users.

My $.02 and I really hope ETC is listening

Steve Bailey
Brooklyn College

 

[gafftaper]

I totally agree that Congo and Jr. are terrific consoles and stand on there own meritts. I also should sit down and play with one before writing off the idea.
The problem is that the ETC is the 800 lbs gorilla in the industry and I feel like the marketing department is trying to sell me a bag of goods by placing Congo and Jr. in the same product line as Eos and now Ion.
What has been needed out of Middleton, and what EVERYBODY has been hoping for, for far too long now, is a Strand like console line, with the same OS and syntax from the $40,000 top-of-the-line to the 2 scene preset basic console. Congo, for all it's design advantages, is still a Swedish lighting console and I cannot think that a lot of facility managers are going to want a basic Ion-Vision style, simple cue-ing console in a black box, then a Congo with RPN in the 500 seat, then an Eos in the 2500 seat rental hall. I have that kind of facility and I'm not doing that. Congo basically breaks the continuity in the learning curve for users and Ion-Vision is seemingly (and currently with limited information) too basic for many users.
My $.02 and I really hope ETC is listening
Steve Bailey
Brooklyn College

No offense to our ETC friends here... but that's exactly why I keep saying that ETC is king of the industry for the moment. With ETC and Strand both busy rolling out new lines of products, it's a huge gamble, and either brand could easily sink the other. True Strand has a bad customer service reputation, but with new ownership, that could change easily enough. What if EOS/Congo/ION is just lame compared to the Palette series? Just because Expression-Obsession has been the dominate console line in the industry doesn't mean EOS and ION will be. The industry existed before ETC and it will exist after ETC. Who know's maybe Zero 88 will come out with the next industry shaking console and ETC and Strand will be left in the dust.

And you can bet ETC, Strand, and Zero88 are listening.

 

[DarSax]

Granted, I have no experience with either the EOS or Congo OS, so I don't know if anything I say will be far off the mark.

I though the ION would be something like the Express brought into the graphical user interface age. It would even look a lot, physically, like the Express series did, but with better ML control, like some encoder wheels and different options for playback. Heck, I was hoping it could even work as a two scene preset board like the Express did. The OS would be more intuitive and streamlined, more like XP or Vista and less like MS-DOS.

To be honest, I thought it'd be something like this. Except with encoder wheels, but even that might have been reaching.

Is it just me, or is the closest thing ETC sells to an Express a Smartfade on the low end or the EOS on the high end? That's one hell of a jump.

Just my I've-been-out-of-a-theater-mindset-for-three-weeks-so-I'm-out-of-it 2 cents.

 

[Pie4Weebl]

DarSax, I'm right in the same mindframe as you for what I wanted from the ion, basically an express that isn't a 10 year old board. I think etc has delivered this and I think this board would work great as a replacement for express boards. For those complaining about only one stack of cues, this board isn't for you, go get a road hog. IMO, this board is for theatres which usually only run on one stack of cues.

 

[gafftaper]

Yeah I've got to agree with Pie. I see the point that Steve has for a huge operation with multiple theaters wanting to have one basic software setup that works on multiple levels... and Strand is out there with that option if that's a deal breaker. But Ion is there for the small theater that has a couple pieces of DMX gear but mostly conventional. Congo is a real nice fit for the moderate size intelligent gear operation. The on board effects generator makes it really easy to program moving lights. And EOS is for the Broadway/Vegas and other high end venues.

Oh and for the concern about the 2 scene preset, that "2X10" and "2X20" description of wing panels along with the ability to add 240 faders sure makes it sound like there may be a possibility of running in a 2 scene preset mode.
Do either of our ETC guys know anything about that?

 

[icewolf08]

Let me add my two cents here. I am still waiting for some more info from Karl (for those of you who don't know I keep in good contact with Karl Haas of ETC) who says he is going to give me a call on Monday. At the moment all I know is that there is something funny with that link to the ION, details of which I should get on Monday. I also should be getting an ION demo early in Sept.

As I understand, and it seems that most have gathered, the ION is the replacement to the Express/ion line of consoles. When you really look at the ETC line as of before the EOS, there really was no middle ground console between Expression and Obsession. Sure, you could go Express -> Expression -> Obsession, but ultimately the only difference between Express and Expression is outputs and enconders, the software is the same. I just don't think that Congo was intended to be, or ever will be a gap filler, it is a different class console in it's own little world.

So, where does Ion fit in? Well, it kind of is a baby EOS, but it is priced in the same range as the Express/ion. ION is supposed to mesh power and ease of use into an affordable package that will be ideal for schools and small to mid size venues.

Playback and subs. The ION is a replacement to the Express/ion line, there was no such thing as a playback on those consoles. There was only one cue list on the Expression. If you need that functionality you shouldn't be buying the low end board. Also, I hate to break it, but 2-scene preset is a technology of the past. No one is butting in systems anymore that have few enough dimmers to make 2 scene preset practical, and as more an more small venues and schools are putting in intelligent gear, it again, isn't practical to have 2-scene preset. Memory consoles are where we are and where we are going. So, you can get submaster wings if you need direct tactile access to channels or scenes.

It's kind of like this, if you are currently using an Obsession, Congo, or Strand 500 series the ION may not be the console for you, so you get an EOS. Really only the Congo doesn't compare in the price range there. If you are using an Express/ion, or Strand 300 then you are the target market for the ION.

As for compatibility between EOS and ION, I believe that is supposed to be the case, but I can't say for sure yet. I will give whatever info I can get on Monday after I talk to Karl.

 

[gafftaper]

Let me add my two cents here. I am still waiting for some more info from Karl (for those of you who don't know I keep in good contact with Karl Haas of ETC) who says he is going to give me a call on Monday. At the moment all I know is that there is something funny with that link to the ION, details of which I should get on Monday. I also should be getting an ION demo early in Sept.
As I understand, and it seems that most have gathered, the ION is the replacement to the Express/ion line of consoles. When you really look at the ETC line as of before the EOS, there really was no middle ground console between Expression and Obsession. Sure, you could go Express -> Expression -> Obsession, but ultimately the only difference between Express and Expression is outputs and enconders, the software is the same. I just don't think that Congo was intended to be, or ever will be a gap filler, it is a different class console in it's own little world.
So, where does Ion fit in? Well, it kind of is a baby EOS, but it is priced in the same range as the Express/ion. ION is supposed to mesh power and ease of use into an affordable package that will be ideal for schools and small to mid size venues.
Playback and subs. The ION is a replacement to the Express/ion line, there was no such thing as a playback on those consoles. There was only one cue list on the Expression. If you need that functionality you shouldn't be buying the low end board. Also, I hate to break it, but 2-scene preset is a technology of the past. No one is butting in systems anymore that have few enough dimmers to make 2 scene preset practical, and as more an more small venues and schools are putting in intelligent gear, it again, isn't practical to have 2-scene preset. Memory consoles are where we are and where we are going. So, you can get submaster wings if you need direct tactile access to channels or scenes.
It's kind of like this, if you are currently using an Obsession, Congo, or Strand 500 series the ION may not be the console for you, so you get an EOS. Really only the Congo doesn't compare in the price range there. If you are using an Express/ion, or Strand 300 then you are the target market for the ION.
As for compatibility between EOS and ION, I believe that is supposed to be the case, but I can't say for sure yet. I will give whatever info I can get on Monday after I talk to Karl.

If there's "something funny" with the ION link it isn't a big deal. The new ETC 2007-2008 catalog has almost exactly the same information. Much of the text is exactly the same. If there is a mistake in the content of the web page it is subtle.

Maybe they didn't intend for me to find the page, but they did mail me the catalog with nearly the same information, which led me to the search function on the website, which brought up that webpage... so their security is a bit poor if they didn't want people to know about it.

By the way, the catalog lists the following accessories: Ion Lighting Playback Controller, Net3 Remote Video Interface, Radio Focus Remote, Ion Client Software Kit, and the three fader wings. So it sounds like they don't plan on the phone remote option.

 

[jmabray]

s.

I also have issues with using a $20 cordless telephone as a remote focus unit, so perhaps that needs to get re-thought as well, or maybe I'm missing something and it's an amazing idea - I just don't see it. A dedicated RFU, wired or not (I prefer wireless) makes my life much easier when the bloody buttons on the RFU are duplicating what's on the actual console. Please don't tell me I have to teach a newbie that the Flash button on the phone really means Macro. Or that Re-Dial goes to Blind. Sorry, but I don't need hidden functionality.

As for the phone remote, As Dustin has said, this is not going to be enabled at this time. However, If/when it is enabled, I was led to believe that it will function the same way as the one on the Congo line does. Let me be clear though - This is not the only remote for the desk. This is a way for smaller less affluent spaces to get a remote. There is a new remote coming out for both the Congo and the Eos/Ion that is a dedicated Radio Frequency Remote. The device has two encoder wheels built into it as well as a 4 line LCD Display. This is the remote that is geared toward the professional houses that you are looking for, Steve. I only brought this up as a neat little thing that the console can do that will help out some lower budget facilities, not as the end all/be all of the console. Looks like it would have been better to keep my mouth shut.

Dustin, I am in Dallas.

As for the subs vs. playback issues discussed here - I don't know what the reasoning was behind choices made, I am only the messenger here. There is alot to be said for both lines of thought.

 

[SteveB]

Alex, some great comments here

"As I understand, and it seems that most have gathered, the ION is the replacement to the Express/ion line of consoles. When you really look at the ETC line as of before the EOS, there really was no middle ground console between Expression and Obsession. Sure, you could go Express -> Expression -> Obsession, but ultimately the only difference between Express and Expression is outputs and enconders, the software is the same."

Sort of. I believe that Expression and Insight, in terms of cost was almost smack dab in the middle of the price range between Express ($5,000 - $7,500), with Insight and Expression at around $15,000 and Obsession II up around $30,000. Just a different OS for Obsession that was a result of ETC needing a tracking console for Broadway.

"I just don't think that Congo was intended to be, or ever will be a gap filler, it is a different class console in it's own little world."

I hope that is ETC's marketing strategy as well.

"So, where does Ion fit in? Well, it kind of is a baby EOS, but it is priced in the same range as the Express/ion. ION is supposed to mesh power and ease of use into an affordable package that will be ideal for schools and small to mid size venues."

Agreed, though I hope it has the ability to add functionality for all those needing their Expression and Insights replaced.

"Playback and subs. The ION is a replacement to the Express/ion line, there was no such thing as a playback on those consoles. There was only one cue list on the Expression. If you need that functionality you shouldn't be buying the low end board."

Again, sort of. You can do multiple playbacks on Emphasis via subroutines on submasters. Just not at the same time, which is the issue with ML's. In reality, the idea of multiple cues running at the same time is sort of new to the industry coming from dedicated ML consoles. I believe even Obsession only had one cue stack. So multiple playbacks on faders is really a ML functionality. But given the trickle down OS from EOS, with the encoders as well as palettes and touch screen capability, it seems to me to NOT allow playbacks on the fader wings, but to limit them to submasters only, is really stupid and kills the marketability of the console.

"Also, I hate to break it, but 2-scene preset is a technology of the past. No one is butting in systems anymore that have few enough dimmers to make 2 scene preset practical, and as more an more small venues and schools are putting in intelligent gear, it again, isn't practical to have 2-scene preset. Memory consoles are where we are and where we are going. So, you can get submaster wings if you need direct tactile access to channels or scenes."

Be very careful in assuming that the way you operate and function is going to be that way, for how every potential user operates. I get frequent users of my Express going 2 scene. I run my one-off dance recitals in 2 scene.

In reality though, I've given a great deal of thought to "Do I still need 2 scene" and the answer is that I could work around it if I have enough assignable fader handles. It's certainly possible to build up a LOT of looks on subs/faders, but I really do need a lot of manual handles (I see a lot of riders that are Vegas style events - Dionne Warwick this past May is a case in point - 40 channels / 2 scene plus subs). If you doubt this, look at how well Avo does with their Diamond series consoles which have a lot of handles. That's what I'm looking for and I would probably get an Ion with 2-2x20 fader wings for manual channels, as WELL AS a 3rd 2x20 for playbacks (Going to have to take out the tape measure to see if I have the room !), with any fader having the capability to be a channel, a submaster or a cue/effect playback.

I could certainly understand if ETC wants to limit, for software/processing reasons or for marketing reasons, not allowing all 240 potential fader handles - now described as submasters, from being playback faders. Seems that's whole lot of processing. Fine, make it 40 playbacks as with Congo Jr, plus up to 200 submasters only. I could live with that.

"It's kind of like this, if you are currently using an Obsession, Congo, or Strand 500 series the ION may not be the console for you, so you get an EOS. Really only the Congo doesn't compare in the price range there. If you are using an Express/ion, or Strand 300 then you are the target market for the ION."

Not yet I'm not !.

From another post, it was good to hear that the Focus Phone is not going to be the only RFU available.

Breathlessly awaiting the latest news !

SB

 

[jmabray]

Here's the thing about this desk, (and it's big brother EOS)

While the physical hardware may be locked, the software is so very far from it. With Express and Expression, we are looking at locked software. (the last feature release software for the Express was released in what, 2000? 2001?) The software for these desks in in it's initial release (or very close to it) Eos is at 1.1 (with additional updates on the way shortly). ION, when it is actually released, will be at 1.0. Express/ion was at 3.11 in it's latest release. Needless to say, the product was and is, I would imagine, significantly different (and better) than it was when it started out from a software point of view.

We have already seen a semi-official ETC response to this thread - Dustin is going to forward the concerns raised here on to those who have some real power to change them. (AND the gosh darn thing isn't even out yet!)

It is going to be very interesting to see what these consoles grow and mature into.

 

[icewolf08]

As promised, I chatted with Karl today and this is what he said:

1) All information on the ION web page is correct.

2) The web page was not supposed to be publicly accessible yet.

3) Due to the fact that people like us found the page, ETC was inundated with calls over the past week asking about the ION and when they could make orders and what it could do and all that.

We didn't get into any of the technical concerns voiced here, so that is all i have for you.

 

[gafftaper]

The web page was not supposed to be publicly accessible yet.

ETC must have some off duty T.S.A. employees running the website.


This of course still doesn't explain why they mailed out the print catalog with the full color glossy add for ION to thousands of customers.

Sounds like "Brownie" is doing a "Heck of a Job" timing the release of secret information.

 

[SteveB]

As promised, I chatted with Karl today and this is what he said:
1) All information on the ION web page is correct.
2) The web page was not supposed to be publicly accessible yet.
3) Due to the fact that people like us found the page, ETC was inundated with calls over the past week asking about the ION and when they could make orders and what it could do and all that.
We didn't get into any of the technical concerns voiced here, so that is all i have for you.

Geez, and to think that I cross posted the website to LightNetwork and the Stagecraft list.

One of two things can come from this. My work number will show up on ETC's caller ID and I'll be permanently at the back of the wait cue. Or,......I can't think of anything good actually.

I can imagine that after the console development folks got over their consternation about the site becoming public, that had to think that all the calls were a positive sign about future interest and sales. I HOPE that's what they thought.

Interestingly enough, that while there was a lot of comments here on CB, there was almost none on Stagecraft list and not much more on LightNetwork.

SB

 

[Pie4Weebl]

Interestingly enough, that while there was a lot of comments here on CB, there was almost none on Stagecraft list and not much more on LightNetwork.
SB

Yeah I was surprised by how little discussed it was over on LN.

 

[jmabray]

I have found that those over there typically want to see something before they get into it - also they see themselves more as moving light guys - so a console from a historically theatrical control company won't interest them as much as a new product from flying pig or avo.

The factory is having webinars with dealers and reps at this point going over the details of the product, so they have to know that info is getting out there. To top that off, this was just about the worst kept secret in the lighting industry for the last year or so - so now that it is somewhat official, they had to know the calls were going to come.

 

[CLEFFEL]

Wow, what a discussion, I regret that I'm coming in to it a bit late.

It's my understanding (from a dealer's perspective) that the EOS line (EOS and ION) was meant to be a completely seperate line of consoles from the Congo Line. With the EOS line being directed more towards the theatre market with single playbacks, etc. and the Congo line being directed more at the rock 'n roll fly-by-the-seat-of-your-pants market.

And to reiterate what Jeff said earlier, the Express is not going away. It is feature complete, and it still has its place in the market. If I'm not mistaken, the ION is meant to compliment the Express, and in a way replace the Expression.

For those of you crying for a mid-line EOS-esque product, I've heard rumblings and rumors about an EOS Jr. to do just that...but don't hold me to that.

So there's my $.02.

-Chris

The views and opinions expressed in this post are mine and mine alone. They are NOT the opinions of my employer or any of the companies we represent.