Large Scale DMX Distribution over CAT5 and control system

[tk2k]

Hi,

I'm working on a project where we will be using about 30 rooms for a production (think Punchdrunk style) and need to be able to send control data to each room. The building is CAT5 wired (ethernet system) and I was thinking I culd run artnet from a central server to each room.... here is where things get complicated. each room will have it's own set of cues that need to be time-based, and i need to be able to run all of the cues for each room from a central system. My first thought is qLab running each room as a different artnet universe , but I'm wondering if there is a better way to do this

additionally, does anyone know of an inexpensive Artnet to DMX converter, seeing as we would need one for each room.

 

[epimetheus]

Not exactly inexpensive, but there's the Enttec ODE. That's really the only thing I've got to contribute atm.

Oh, what DMX devices do you need in each room?

 

[Pie4Weebl]

To me it sounds like you'd want to GrandMA and MA-net to each room, each room having its own cue stack and clocked together. With that you could have a smaller console you could tote around and pop into the system in any room to edit whatever is in that room.

Keep in mind for any ethernet based system, it needs to be its own network and not on top of an internet system.

 

[Chris15]

Keep in mind for any ethernet based system, it needs to be its own network and not on top of an internet system.

Or at least on it's own VLAN...

But hasn't Artnet now been setup to use 10.x.x.x as a secondary option to 2.x.x.x (which one will note is not a legal IP addressing scheme for a private network per IANA specs)? I believe specifically so it can coexist on a network, but you'd need to check that.

It may be easier to just VLAN all the ports you need off (or have IT do that for you, the network must be using managed switches.)

 

[Sony]

You can do this with pretty much any modern lighting console that outputs DMX over ethernet. Doesn't matter if it is ArtNet, ETCNet, MA-Net, or whatever. I know with the ETC EOS/ION/Element you can make cue stacks, load them into a submaster and use the bump buttons on the faders are go and back button which could theoretically be triggered by QLab via MIDI Show Control. It would probably be a lot better, easier, more consistant and reliable then using a computer with an Entec box and computer software.

Like others said though, you NEVER really want to run a lighting network on a network that is connected to the internet if you can avoid it, as you are just asking for problems. If this is a large facility they probably have a patch room where you can patch all of the ethernet ports you need into their own switch or a switch you provide and create your own network. This is of course something you need to work out with the building manager and may cost extra.

 

[tk2k]

Thanks guys, this is some really good stuff.

All we really need to be able to control is maybe 8 dimmers per room. We'll be able to fully reacquisition the network, however we will be passing through ethernet switches (which should not be a problem as I understand it?)

The main thing is programing and clock timing of multiple rooms at this point. Your thoughts is a grand MA might work best for this? I'm honestly worried about programing this. Each room as an individual unit would work fine, but the combining is where I'm worried.

What lighting systems can run 30+ cue stacks at the same time? Or, alternatively, what software?

Lastly, on the dimming side, network compatible dimmers? ETC smartpack style things? are they protocol specific (I.E. would not work with a grand MA or computerized system?)

Sorry for so many questions, this is my first large scale dmx distribution project of this nature.

 

[cdcarter]

As everyone else is saying, your best bet is to have a dedicated console outputting the DMX using whatever networking it supports (Art-Net, Net2, sACN, whatever) and have that be triggered by MSC on your show control computer. I don't know how close to Punchdrunk your piece is, but they operate (at least, SNM did) with everything timecoded on a show control unit which triggers the sound and lighting. Using a show control computer like this allows you to add I/O boxes, control atmospheric effects, etc...

John Huntington, the show control expert, loves Medialon for his show control solutions, though these systems can be pricy.

I guess it breaks down to how much in each room is being controlled, what those elements are, and how centralized and timecoded you need control to be.

 

[tk2k]

Thanks Christian

so basically, set up each room's cues as a separate clue list on the board, and run the actual calling of cues from each list and timecoding off the show control computer? If this is correct (please correct me if it is not) in terms of cost effectiveness, would it be possible to, for example, rent board, get programing set, then offload that data to a computerized system or network processing unit?

I could be understanding this wrong, but a show processor, http://www.medialon.com/products/showmaster-pro-mk2.htm? It seems that does the majority of the work, given that case is there a need for something as powerful as a GrandMA or would an Ion with it's multiple cue lists be sufficient if all the timecoding is done on the Show Controller end

 

[Sony]

An ION would be more than sufficent to do this. I went to punchdrunk's production of Faust in London 2006 and they were running the entire show on a console much less advanced than the ION (I do believe it was on an Obsession 2) and it worked just fine. The Ion can do everything you need with a total maximum of 999 Cue Stacks....WAY more than what you need. They are common and pretty much any rental house can provide you with one.

 

[JChenault]

Curious why a separate universe for each room? You might want to check the version that qlab is running. The original artnet protocol supported four universes. It now supports more, but be careful.

Another issue may be with using an existing network. IE if the network has lots of traffic, you may have issues with getting your signal through in a timely manner. There may be an issue with network configuration and switching. I am not sure if artnet is doing a multicast protocol or not, but if it is, then I believe that any switches need to be set up to support it.

 

[cdcarter]

Thanks Christian

so basically, set up each room's cues as a separate clue list on the board, and run the actual calling of cues from each list and timecoding off the show control computer? If this is correct (please correct me if it is not) in terms of cost effectiveness, would it be possible to, for example, rent board, get programing set, then offload that data to a computerized system or network processing unit?

That would certainly be possible. I don't know how many universes the Medialon system you posted is capable of handling, though I really doubt you need a full universe per room. If it's only 8 dimmers, you can probably get away with only 2 universes, which I think almost any system should be able to do.

Dimmers in the room should probably be something like a ULD, but it depends on the power available and actual per-room requirements.

I could be understanding this wrong, but a show processor, Medialon - Show & Media Control - Products - Showmaster Pro [Mk2] It seems that does the majority of the work, given that case is there a need for something as powerful as a GrandMA or would an Ion with it's multiple cue lists be sufficient if all the timecoding is done on the Show Controller end

You're understanding it just fine. The show controller can do as little or as much as you want it to. In the diagram you see on that Medialon product page, each island is getting ArtNet direct from the lighting console, where as each barge is getting DMX from the Medialon unit, pre-programmed and receiving wireless timecoding.

If you have the console sending the DMX/ArtNet, and the show controller just triggering it via MSC, you can busk the show in case of a major issue. If you are just using the show controller, you better think of a way to turn on lights in the building when that fire alarm starts going off or the show controller dies.

 

[tk2k]

Dimmers in the room should probably be something like a ULD, but it depends on the power available and actual per-room requirements.

Thanks again

One last question, in terms of transferring from ethernet to dmx, the ULDs don't have a direct CAT5 interface. I'd really like to avoid the need for 30+ adapters if at all possible.

 

[cdcarter]

This brings up more architectural questions. Where can you distribute circuits, where can you distribute ethernet, and where can you distribute DMX. If you have three rooms in close proximity, it may make sense to have a larger dimming unit power all three rooms and circuit out from there. You may want to have a few well placed ArtNet nodes and have some opto-splitters running true DMX to the actual rooms. It's hard to say what the best idea is without knowing exactly what you are using and what your layout is.

 

[epimetheus]

If you have access to the network patch panels, and can isloate individual runs to each run from the ethernet switches, you could put DMX opto-splitters at the patch panel and push the DMX over the CAT5 wiring, rather than having to use an actual DMX-over-ethernet protocol.

If you're only talking 8 dimmers per room, why would you need more than one universe? A single DMX universe is 512 channels. Will you have more channels than this? Is the entire rig conventional fixtures, no multi-parameter fixtures?

 

[Chris15]

This brings up more architectural questions. Where can you distribute circuits, where can you distribute ethernet, and where can you distribute DMX. If you have three rooms in close proximity, it may make sense to have a larger dimming unit power all three rooms and circuit out from there. You may want to have a few well placed ArtNet nodes and have some opto-splitters running true DMX to the actual rooms. It's hard to say what the best idea is without knowing exactly what you are using and what your layout is.

There's a variation on Christian's idea I'd consider...
You've said you'll be requisitioning the network for the duration of the event. How about placing a ethernet - DMX node (whatever flavour you need for your eventual controller) at each comms rack and sending split DMX down the Cat5s to the rooms (from optosplitters)? It means disconnecting the ports from the switches, but it should still be easily enough achievable...

 

[tk2k]

I'll be getting mroe technical specifications on the site in a few days, which will let me know if it will be possible to run straight up DMX over cat5, or if we'lll have to run though switching hardware etc therefor use an IP based protocol

Thanks for your help guys

 

[starksk]

This sounds like a very interesting project.

Is this going to be a temporary/short run production, or is it going to be more of a permanently installed show?

Other than initial programming, are you going to have a human run the show in addition to timecode control or is it going to be a start the show and walk away? Is there a need for other external triggers to start or stop lighting?

How many discreet channels of control will you need?

If you end up running through an existing network infrastructure, one thing to pay close attention to is which network switches are installed and how they can be configured. (Specifically routing and VLANing options)

I am with the camp that would suggest that you reduce the number of external dimming packs by consolodating them into centrally located areas and running circuits to the outer rooms if possible.

You asked about networkable racks. I know that Sensor+ racks and packs can listen to both Net2 and sACN protocols natively on the network. There may be other manufacturer's racks that can listen over the network as well. (I have a slight bias).

As you are no doubt aware, the crux of this project will be your infrastructure. I look forward to following this thread and seeing how it turns out.

_____________________

~Kirk

 

[tk2k]

This sounds like a very interesting project.

Is this going to be a temporary/short run production, or is it going to be more of a permanently installed show?

It's a short production, two week run, because of that we're running into two issues, the first being we can't really afford to drill holes through the walls and probably can't get enough power to go fully centralized dimming racks.

Other than initial programming, are you going to have a human run the show in addition to timecode control or is it going to be a start the show and walk away? Is there a need for other external triggers to start or stop lighting?

There will be some human control. My guess is a human will start block cues that are maybe 5-8mins worth of acting and cues. We're not a professional theater company, hence not having the budget to rent a full grand-ma or something of that nature. I'll gladly give you guys all the details once the project fully goes public (we're still in the process of acquiring a vacated building) because I'm sure the forum will have some valuable input. I'll probably make a dedicated thread to be honest

How many discreet channels of control will you need?

up to 240 at max I would say


I may be entirely off base, but as a non-profit community event, do you think there is any chance of getting some sort of corporate sponsorship? Is there any point in reaching out to ETC or any other manufacturers?

 

[DuckJordan]

Some one mentioned it but it was kind of passed over. Why not run DMX over the Cat5 lines, its doable and its fairly safe. That way instead of having a ton of devices into the rooms to help take it off the network into native DMX, you could just set up the DMX addressing and litteraly just use a one cue for all the rooms. To me it makes more sense to send one command over the whole system than try and get all the controllers to be in sync.

 

[cdcarter]

Some one mentioned it but it was kind of passed over. Why not run DMX over the Cat5 lines, its doable and its fairly safe. That way instead of having a ton of devices into the rooms to help take it off the network into native DMX, you could just set up the DMX addressing and litteraly just use a one cue for all the rooms. To me it makes more sense to send one command over the whole system than try and get all the controllers to be in sync.

This would only work if they have patch panel access. DMX over CAT5 can't be run through any switching devices. Even then, this could be a nightmare for whoever is responsible for undoing the building's existing patch and then recreating it at strike.

It should be noted that if you go with a show control solution (or even just rent an Ion and have it send sACN throughout your building), you can still have only one cue stack. In situations like these though, where it seems not everything its timecoded down to a science, having sections on stacks and on executors will allow for greater safety and things will be a bit easier to deal with.