LED lighting, I'm the DUMMIE!!

[postmaster]

I hope someone here can help me. I know almost nothing about stage lighting, was an audio engineer back in the day, but that is doing me no good on this project. My boss, knows I have an audio background, has tasked me with this stage lighting project, oh boy!!
They want to use all LED lights for a permanent music stage installed in their restaurant. It will consist of 12 LED pars for the front lighting and 12 LED pars for the back lighting run on two trusses.

I THINK, after reading everything I can come up with on the web, each light will need a 120v power supply and one dmx cable. The dmx can "daisy chain" from one light to the next light for all twelve lights on the chain and with a 20 amp circuit, with each light drawing ~1.36 amps, 12 pars can be daisy chained on the 120v end as well.

With this kind of set up and the proper mixing board will we be able to control each light separately for color and intensity?

[FONT=&quot]Will we need a mixing board with two dmx outs to control each of the 12 light circuits and each light separately? I have barely even seen a light mixing board and just assume you can get one with two dmx channels out.

Am I even close in my thought process here?

Thanks everyone in advance. I know I am way out of my league, but the boss dumped this one in my lap. I know nothing about this, and have being telling them so for weeks. My only saving grace is this is for a small concert stage and not real theater lighting!
Doug
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[Les]

I'm assuming that you want to keep your budget low, in which case you will find that most of these boards have only one DMX output. The good news is that you can control up to 512 DMX channels for each DMX out by daisy chaining as you describe. The key is to address all of your fixtures individually; I.E. Fixture 1= channels 1-6, Fixture 2= channels 7-12, etc. You set the addresses on the fixtures themselves, usually via digital readout (DIP switches on older lights). This will allow you to individually control each parameter the light has to offer (keep in mind that LED fixtures can take more or less than the 6 channels I used as an example above. It depends on the fixtures you choose).

The 120v mains need to be constant power, and shouldn't be connected to the board. You can power them through DMX relay packs (to shut them down for the night), but nothing else. No "dimmers set to full", "non-dim", etc.

Boards with 2 DMX outputs (or "universes") are out there, but you don't need one in this case. They also cost a few thousand each.

Hope this helps!

 

[postmaster]

Thanks for the reply Leslie,
The problem with only one channel is the boss is very big on aesthetics and wants two separate trusses running the width of the stage and does NOT want a wire linking one truss to the next truss, like a dmx daisy chained from one truss to the next truss. I have seen some LED pars that have a three pin out and a 5 pin out on the same fixture. Can you have both outs operating at the same time? MAN AM I IN OVER MY HEAD!
Doug

I'm assuming that you want to keep your budget low, in which case you will find boards with one DMX output. The good news is that you can control up to 512 DMX channels for each DMX out by daisy chaining as you describe. The key is to address all of your fixtures individually; I.E. Fixture 1= channels 1-6, Fixture 2= channels 7-12, etc.

Boards with 2 DMX outputs (or "universes") are out there, but you don't need one in your case. They also cost a few thousand.

Hope this helps!

 

[DuckJordan]

No it is definately not recomended. You could look on getting a splitter. It's going to be expensive so ask your boss if he's willing to spend the cash to hide 1 cable?

One thing that you need to look out for is will this be busked (run by individual faders in no standard order), or cues. If busked you may want to look at a more physical console than a pc type system. Another question who will run this?

Sent from my ADR6300 using Tapatalk

 

[Les]

Yes, you can mix and match 5-pin and 3-pin fixtures, as long as you're using the correct adapters, cables, etc.

I second what Duck said. Probably the cheapest way to get a split signal is an opto-splitter, but cheap is a relative term. It would be cheaper than going with a 2-universe board, so yes; is it worth it? That could easily add $1500 on to the price. PC based systems may get you two universes on a budget but I haven't looked in to the prices on that --- or the prices on opto-splitters. My figures are ballpark, so hopefully someone with numbers will chime in. You may look in to that Enttec unit in the WIKI link above (just click on where I wrote 'opto-splitter').

 

[avkid]

An optical splitter can be had for less than $200.

 

[postmaster]

Les and Duckjordan,
We are going to buy a board with sliders and it will be run by someone we will have to train. We are in a small town a long way away from anywhere and will not be able to find anyone who has ever run lights. It is concert lighting, way easier than theater. The boss IS willing to pay almost anything for aesthetics, and the pockets are deep. The boss wants the truss and board because it looks good. I have told her that we can do this just as good without the truss ($8,000) or a light board, but she likes the looks. It is nice to have a boss that doesn't worry about budget.
Doug

Yes, you can mix and match 5-pin and 3-pin fixtures, as long as you're using the correct adapters, cables, etc.

I second what Duck said. Probably the cheapest way to get a split signal is an opto-splitter, but cheap is a relative term. It would be cheaper than going with a 2-universe board, so yes; is it worth it? That could easily add $1500 on to the price. PC based systems may get you two universes on a budget but I haven't looked in to the prices on that --- or the prices on opto-splitters. My figures are ballpark, so hopefully someone with numbers will chime in.

 

[chausman]

Boards with 2 DMX outputs (or "universes") are out there, but you don't need one in this case. They also cost a few thousand each.

Hope this helps!

there are a few boards (elation comes To mind) that have two identical DMX outputs. But the op could daisy chain all 24 together.

 

[mstaylor]

The reason for the three pin and five pin is some fixture manufacturers decided to be noncompliant and it caught on. DMX uses pins one, two and three so it can operate on either three or five. What you don't want to do is use audio cable for DMX. DMX compliant cable is 120 Ohm plus the twist is different. The other thing you don't want to do is use a twofer to tie the trusses together.
You could tie all the units on the truss together, run it down the tree and back up to the other truss. Then come out of the last light and go to your board. You can address your lights in any order but obviously it easier to do it in order. Since you are inexperienced I would suggest addressing in tens. Make the first one 1-6, the second 11-16, the third 21-26. It just makes it easier to remember which is which.
If your boss absolutely insists cabling each truss seperately you would need a opti-splitter. Much cheaper than a board with two universes.

 

[derekleffew]

postmaster, have you chosen the LED PAR fixtures yet? They range in price from $99-$2500 each, and in complexity from 3 channels (RGB) to 15 channels, and in quality from complete junk to you-can't-believe-it's-not-butter.

As previously stated, an opto-splitter ($99-$1500) easily solves the problem of daisy-chaining from truss to truss.
ETC SmartFadeML -> Enttec D-Split -> US Truss, Fixtures 13-24 -> Terminator, DMX
ETC SmartFadeML -> Enttec D-Split -> DS Truss, Fixtures 01-12 -> Terminator, DMX

...It is concert lighting, way easier than theater. ...

I bet many would take exception to that statement.

I'd also consider putting some of those fixtures on the deck, to give more interest than just from the two trusses.

... for a permanent music stage installed in their restaurant. ...

What are the stage dimensions, where will the trusses hang, and what is the ceiling height?

...I have seen some LED pars that have a three pin out and a 5 pin out on the same fixture. Can you have both outs operating at the same time?...

No; that's creating a Y-split, a big no-no in DMX512 rules. You CAN use the fixture as an adapter, e.g., 5 in/3 out, or 3 in/5 out, however. It saves you using an adapter, 3-5 or adapter, 5-3.

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[avkid]

It is concert lighting, way easier than theater.

Oh really now?
Those moving lights don't program themselves.

 

[techieman33]

Oh really now?
Those moving lights don't program themselves.

You program your moving lights? Haha everyone know that sound active mode is way better than anything you can program :rollseyes:

 

[JD]

It is concert lighting, way easier than theater.

Hummmm.... I would say that there are three little words that make even club lighting a heart stopper.....

"Set list change."

Nothing like a lead singer announcing they are about to do a number that you have nothing programed for, or have even heard of the song before! (We've all been there, and usually have some tricks up our selves, but it can be nerve wracking.)

Anyway, although it is a great concept to have every fixture on it's own set of DMX channels.... If you are breaking someone in, you may want to simplify the channel layout. Possibly dedicate six on the rear and six on the front as general wash fixtures, and set them to the same address (One for the front and one for the back.)

If you are new to this, 72 channels to achieve a given scene may be a little mind numbing. Adding the wash concept drops that to 42 channels, and gives you a fast way to get the stage lit when improvising. As you get comfortable with the system, then divide them up.

 

[len]

Yeah, get a splitter.

But for a stage like this, with 24 pars, even if you only run them in 3 channel mode, is 72 channels and that's a lot to program. My guess is that the person running this is not going to be a lighting person, or even have a full time person for this one job.

I'd set the downstage truss to pair up from outside to in, so fixture 1 and 12 are the same, 2 and 11, 3 and 10, etc.

Same with the upstage, but that also depends on if you need some spotlights, etc.

 

[Morte615]

Yeah club lighting is not as complex in some ways as stadium concert lighting, but in others it's just as complex or worse! Though with some pre-planning, thought, and some hard work up front, you can simplify the operation of the system on a day to day basis.

I would recommend doing A LOT of research (posting here is a good start!) and if no one in the venue knows lighting very well then I would recommend hiring someone who does for the initial consult and instillation.

But some ideas to get started with:
The look of the stage and surroundings are not something to put off lightly. The look of the truss outlining the stage and how the stage fits with the room (and the audio system, don't forget about that) are the first things people will see, before any lights are turned on!

Figure out what kind of look you are looking for, and get a budget! The worst thing is to have someone say, "The sky's the limit!" and when you start talking $1,000, $5000, $10,000 or more they turn around and say, "Whoa! Can't we do it cheaper?" Then you have to start from scratch.

The nice part about LED fixtures is that they are so low voltage, you can probably plug every fixture into one 20 amp circuit (but check your wattage before trying it!) and just connect the fixtures with a DMX cable. Most lower end LED fixtures will have a 3 pin DMX in and out so that is what I would look to use. Just make sure to use good quality DMX cables (Please no mic cable!) to hook everything up.

Boards are as numerous as the different situations that you want to do with them. First I would figure out what you want to be able to do with your board, as well as how you want to be able to operate the lights. I would think with your situation you would want something simple to use at first but with lots of capability for more options once you (or whoever you train) get comfortable and learn the board. I would recommend, especially if you want to be able to do a basic show as soon as the system is hooked up, to hire a programmer to program some basic commands so all you have to do is hit a button and the lights will start to work. Then you can have some more advance commands that can be run also to add something nice to the shows. Then as you get comfortable with the board feel free to stop using the original programs (at least till you need someone who doesn't know the system to turn it on because a last minute emergency came up and no one else is able to run the board, it happens!)

There is much more to talk about but it really takes a two way conversation to get through all of it. But in closing I would figure out what type of look you are going for and get a budget then go from there.

 

[Gern]

Les and Duckjordan,
We are going to buy a board with sliders and it will be run by someone we will have to train. We are in a small town a long way away from anywhere and will not be able to find anyone who has ever run lights. It is concert lighting, way easier than theater. The boss IS willing to pay almost anything for aesthetics, and the pockets are deep. The boss wants the truss and board because it looks good. I have told her that we can do this just as good without the truss ($8,000) or a light board, but she likes the looks. It is nice to have a boss that doesn't worry about budget.
Doug

I LOVE my ETC brand Ion console & 2x20 fader wings, You'd learn it & enjoy using it, or 'set it and forget it'. I bet She'd like how it looks too! Looks cool running color effects with the monitor on 'ML Controls'. Plus this site has plenty of folks willing & able to help answer your learning curve questions. When you purchase the console you can also receive factory trained set & teaching at your venue.
GO for it.
btw I'd think you could get an Ion a wing & 2 elo touchscreen monitors for (well) under $15K.

 

[techieman33]

I LOVE my ETC brand Ion console & 2x20 fader wings, You'd learn it & enjoy using it, or 'set it and forget it'. I bet She'd like how it looks too! Looks cool running color effects with the monitor on 'ML Controls'. Plus this site has plenty of folks willing & able to help answer your learning curve questions. When you purchase the console you can also receive factory trained set & teaching at your venue.
GO for it.
btw I'd think you could get an Ion a wing & 2 elo touchscreen monitors for (well) under $15K.

That is a TON of console for 24 led pars. I know he said "unlimited" budget, but that is just over the top when there are so many consoles that are more than capable of controlling those lights at a fraction of the cost.

 

[Gern]

That is a TON of console for 24 led pars. I know he said "unlimited" budget, but that is just over the top when there are so many consoles that are more than capable of controlling those lights at a fraction of the cost.

OP:
It is concert lighting, way easier than theater. The boss IS willing to pay almost anything for aesthetics, and the pockets are deep. The boss wants the truss and board because it looks good.

Given that, I totally disagree. I would say, IMHO the best concert console, a Grand MA 2 would be a TON of console. I also haven't used anything other than the top 5 Major manufacturers consoles for the past 20 years. I laugh when I go into locations that have that stuff. I use a console I bring in.

 

[Tex]

I laugh when I go into locations that have that stuff. I use a console I bring in.

So, you bought an ION for your personal use?
Spending extra money for stuff you don't need isn't "cool". There are no style points given for equipment brand. If you saw a show and thought it was good, would you change your opinion if you found out they used an ADJ lighting console?

 

[LXPlot]

Given that, I totally disagree. I would say, IMHO the best concert console, a Grand MA 2 would be a TON of console. I also haven't used anything other than the top 5 Major manufacturers consoles for the past 20 years. I laugh when I go into locations that have that stuff. I use a console I bring in.

An Element would be large enough to control what he described. A SmartFadeML would be large enough to control what he described. An Express 48/96 would be large enough to control what he described. As would an LP1k, a Basic Palette, a PC solution, 2 Scene Setters, etc. GrandMA2 would be to much board, but Ion would be to much as well, especially considering the fact that when your console setup is more expensive than all of your fixtures combined (with a few exceptions), you're doing something wrong.