Lifts

[midgetgreen11]

Our maintenance department is filtering all lift rentals that take place in our auditorium. The Supervisor of Plants & Grounds has stated that according to the company's insurance policy all lift users must be trained by the rental company on the equipment and wear a harness at all times while using the lift.

I have two questions in response to this:

a) Doesn't the law require any operator to be 18 years of age? In our case all operators would be students as was in the past.

b) Wouldn't a harness in an aerial lift make it more dangerous than it already is. (i.e. if the genie falls, its pulling you with it)

Thanks

 

[Footer]

There is no law nationally that states that the operator must be 18 that I know of, but you could have local regs that state that. There is also another level to this, the rental company. Its the rental company's gear, they can say who uses it in their rental contract. It is pretty standard practice to have to be "approved" to use a lift of any kind from a rental company. The 18 thing does not surprise me either. I would conform to these 2 rules because if something does happen when you are up, you will not be covered.

The fall arrest rule has been debated and debated for as long as I can remember. I know people who won't clip in, I know people who will, and I know people who will only clip in if its off to a truss or batten. However, under OSHA regs you must clip in. A genie lift is considered a boom lift, and OSHA says you have to be clipped in when in a boom lift.

 

[BDS0111]

There is no law that I know of that says an operator has to be over 18 years of age. Furthermore, I have been renting lifts for many years and have national accounts with many firms and I have never heard of a company restricting who can operate equipment based on age, however...I have never really looked at the fine print in regards to this, I have just never "heard" of it!

Secondly...OSHA does not apply to students! Unless it has changed, there is no OSHA reg that requires an operator to be in a harness and clipped in when operating a lift that has a proper guard rail system in place. If you do not have the guard rail, then you need a harness. If you see workers in a harness while in a lift, it is because it is a company policy. Of course, it is NEVER a bad idea to wear a harness. And yes, if you are in a upright man lift, the harnes is going to do nothing for you if you fall over, because you are going to most likely take the basket with you.

 

[jwl868]

I can’t comment on (a).

Regarding (b), OSHA has different regulations for different types of “lifts”. (OSHA has distinct regulatory definitions for different types of “lifts”. However, out in the real world, many people stray from these distinct definitions.) I suggest that you visit the US OSHA website (Occupational Safety and Health Administration - OSHA HOME PAGE) and search for and read their material (regulations and standard interpretations) about “scissors lifts” and “aerial lifts”. After that, check your state’s OSHA regulations to see if they have anything different. Those regs are probably found in State Department of Labor.

Joe

 

[Les]

When was the last time you saw a well-maintained, properly used and firmly-footed personal lift tip over for just no reason? The only time you are in danger of tipping is when you are not using the lift properly (or on under the correct conditions i.e. level flooring, proper floor support, etc) or defeating safety features. I think you are more likely to fall out of the basket by climbing up the first rail in order to get a gobo in that furthest instrument than you are to have the lift tip over when being used properly. I say, clip in.

 

[Van]

That is a tricky area, and opinions that you get here are just that, opinions and not legal statements. As Footer pointed out there are several layers of liability to this question. The schools liability to protect it's students. The maintenance departments liability to protect it's works and the Rental company's liability to protect itself. Usually an agreement can be arrived at between a school and a rental company when it is proved that adequate training will be provided by the school for the use of machinery like lifts. Laws vary from State to State and town to town, but concession are usually made for individuals 16 and above for the operation of lifts and lift trucks. I would insist however that if you are to be trained that you receive a card indicating that you received such training as this can be a first step towards the world of Professional endorsements that you will need to acquire to compete in the work force.

On the "Clipping-in" issue. Again as footer stated OSHA rules state that you must be tied off when operating a lift period. there have been numerous debates over this issue, one was actually teed off by an accident that occurred here in Portland at the "new" addition on the Airport. in a nut shell; When a piece of structural steel collapse the only person to survive was the one who was not clipped in, the others were all clipped off to a safety wire attached to the framing member they were on and were dragged down to their death. The unclipped worker was able to jump off the member and onto an adjoining concrete floor.
It should be noted however that this is/was an extremely rare case. in almost ever study persons who are clipped in and ride down with a piece of collapsing equipment are protected by the inherent protective properties of being surrounded by that "cage". People who are not clipped in tend to get crushed under the equipment, the most common cause of death in fork lift accidents is a persons head being crushed under the roll cage bars when they are not wearing a seat belt, and are therefore much safer being tie-off to the equipment.

 

[Footer]

Secondly...OSHA does not apply to students!

That does not mean that it should not be followed.

Unless it has changed, there is no OSHA reg that requires an operator to be in a harness and clipped in when operating a lift that has a proper guard rail system in place. If you do not have the guard rail, then you need a harness. If you see workers in a harness while in a lift, it is because it is a company policy. Of course, it is NEVER a bad idea to wear a harness. And yes, if you are in a upright man lift, the harnes is going to do nothing for you if you fall over, because you are going to most likely take the basket with you.

That is not totally true. Scissor lifts do not require fall protection because they are considered scaffold. However, genie lifts are not. They are considered boom lifts and therefore require it. This is to keep you from bouncing out of the basket during a sudden bump or something along those lines. OSHA does not have a hard and fast rule on vertical man lifts, instead it borrows from both the scaffold section and the boom lift section leaning towards the boom lift section.

Tie-off requirements for equipment covered by the aerial lift provisions (§1926.453)
Section 1926.453(b)(2)(v) provides that employees must be tied-off "when working from an aerial lift." A body belt is permitted only if it is part of a restraint system (a system that prevents the worker from being exposed to any fall). Otherwise, a body harness must be used and the equipment must meet the requirements of a fall arrest system in §1926.502.

The purpose of this requirement is to protect employees from being bounced out/off of the basket/work platform when maneuvering to a work location, or placing themselves in a position in which they could be exposed to a fall by climbing/leaning over and placing their center of gravity outside the basket.

 

[midgetgreen11]

I would conform to these 2 rules because if something does happen when you are up, you will not be covered.

I have every intention to, I was just concerned as I'd heard the 18-years-or-older rule somewhere and wasn't sure if it was true. The company is coming in to train our crew and give us certification cards to use their equipment.

Also, the type of lifts we would be using would be either a Genie AWP series or JBL model similar, or a SkyJack scissor lift with removable railings to fit it through the house door. Our cove is above a level surface and has no catwalk so we use a lift to reach it.

 

[derekleffew]

Lots of good information here: Fall Safety - FAQ.

 

[BDS0111]

That is not totally true. Scissor lifts do not require fall protection because they are considered scaffold. However, genie lifts are not. They are considered boom lifts and therefore require it. This is to keep you from bouncing out of the basket during a sudden bump or something along those lines. OSHA does not have a hard and fast rule on vertical man lifts, instead it borrows from both the scaffold section and the boom lift section leaning towards the boom lift section.

Thank you for the correction! I should have been more clear, I was speaking of Scissor Lifts only but failed to mention that. Also, Genie makes many different lifts. Many people generically refer to vertical mast lifts (Such as the AWP Series) as Genie's... If I understand correctly, these vertical mast lifts DO NOT require the worker to be tied off. This is what I understand straight from OSHA. Anyone else have any insight into this??

 

[Van]

Thank you for the correction! I should have been more clear, I was speaking of Scissor Lifts only but failed to mention that. Also, Genie makes many different lifts. Many people generically refer to vertical mast lifts (Such as the AWP Series) as Genie's... If I understand correctly, these vertical mast lifts DO NOT require the worker to be tied off. This is what I understand straight from OSHA. Anyone else have any insight into this??

I'm not sure about the OSHA Regs but Genie does provide and suggest tieing off to points in the basket of all AWP type / vertical post man lifts.

 

[Floridaskye]

Although there are many OSHA regulations for various lifts, generally these regulations are never followed. As long as I've worked in the industry I have never met anyone who tied themselves to something that would probably tip over on top of you if you fell off it. Also how many people actually working with Genies automatically disable outriggers so they can be pushed around the stage or try to use the Genie to lift trussing or take down an orchestra shell.

If you read the warning on the Genie it specifically says if you remove the outriggers or push the Genie while extended it will cause death. Not May, Will. I don't think that's stopped anyone though as I've worked with national tours over the last four years and most of the time they extend the Genie, remove the outriggers, and go about focusing the electrics without ever coming down. Not to mention overweight people jumping up in the genie bucket to get it to lift.

This said if we then start to worry about OSHA regulations as pertaining to lift operations we should probably stop doing a lot of things.

[FONT=&quot]Robert J. Coward[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Technical Theatre Director[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Epstein Center for the Arts[/FONT]

 

[Van]

Although there are many OSHA regulations for various lifts, generally these regulations are never followed. As long as I've worked in the industry I have never met anyone who tied themselves to something that would probably tip over on top of you if you fell off it. Also how many people actually working with Genies automatically disable outriggers so they can be pushed around the stage or try to use the Genie to lift trussing or take down an orchestra shell.

If you read the warning on the Genie it specifically says if you remove the outriggers or push the Genie while extended it will cause death. Not May, Will. I don't think that's stopped anyone though as I've worked with national tours over the last four years and most of the time they extend the Genie, remove the outriggers, and go about focusing the electrics without ever coming down. Not to mention overweight people jumping up in the genie bucket to get it to lift.

This said if we then start to worry about OSHA regulations as pertaining to lift operations we should probably stop doing a lot of things.

[FONT=&quot]Robert J. Coward[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Technical Theatre Director[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Epstein Center for the Arts[/FONT]

I gotta say it's to know where to start to respond to a post such as this.
I can tell you, you've never worked in any of the venues, and especially not the IATSE venues that I have toured through over the last 20 years. Are there times when it would be a lot easier to go about disabling saftey devices ? Sure. Is it a "common" practice? Not on my watch. As a TD you should know it is your responsibility to ensure the health/safety of those on your crews. Personally I find this post offensive and more than a little irresponsible.
Getting off my soap box now.
< un-clipping first>

 

[LightStud]

Floridaskye, I have notified the Fort Lauderdale Area Office of your post and attitude toward Safety in the Workplace. You may expect a visit from them shortly.http://www.controlbooth.com/forums/members/floridaskye.html

 

[kiwitechgirl]

First, I just want to say that I am not in the USA and have never (nor am I likely to!) worked there - so what I have been told is from a UK and New Zealand perspective - so the laws and regulations will be different. I use vertical mast and scissor lifts on a reasonably regular basis and have the appropriate IPAF certificate/card/whatever you want to call it for them - never use boom lifts or cherry pickers or anything like that.

The purpose of this requirement is to protect employees from being bounced out/off of the basket/work platform when maneuvering to a work location, or placing themselves in a position in which they could be exposed to a fall by climbing/leaning over and placing their center of gravity outside the basket.

This makes sense, but surely if you're using a non-driveable vertical mast lift correctly and safely, you will be in no danger of being bounced out of the basket when manoeuvering to a work location, because you will be at ground level when it's moving, and you will be in no danger of being exposed to a fall because you will keep your centre of gravity within the basket and not climb on the railings? When I did my IPAF training for the vertical mast lift, the instructor basically said "you don't need to be clipped in, in fact it's more dangerous if you are because if you fall out, you'll pull the thing over on top of you." I totally understand it if you're in something which can be driven at height, but given that vertical mast lifts are not designed for it and should not be pushed around at height, surely this requirement serves no purpose in this situation?

The whole "removing the outriggers" debate is one which I don't want to get deeply embroiled in, but I will say that one venue I work at has a Cougar lift which has so-called "special" mode - it has a keylock which if activated means the pressure switches on the outriggers are disabled so you can go up without them. This was put in because the lift is often used up against a wall, and with all four outriggers out, you cannot reach what you need to because the bucket is too far away from the wall. The bypass is never used in normal situations, and only the venue tech has the key for it - so what is more dangerous - using the lift with two outriggers up against a wall and staying safely in the bucket, or using it with all four outriggers and having to lean dangerously out of the bucket to reach what you need to? I should add that the lift does have the appropriate inspections, and the inspectors are perfectly happy with this arrangement.

 

[photoatdv]

Umkay... I wrote I nice (or not!) long post last night that I seem to have forgotten to post!

LightStud, did you really call OSHA over a post on the INTERNET! Personally I see that as SO far over the line it's not really funny. I've got to say also that Floridaskye post was a little ridiculous, but let's face-- that does happen. Should it-- NO NO NO, but really it's not the worst thing going on in a production house in the world. This should be a safe place for people to ask for help and discuss practices! Not to go over someone's head. Yeah, several people offered to contact Headcrabs administration, but they did so with his full help and support.

Really stuff that bad has been posted on here and all the other technical forums-- and everyone doesn't go blow the whistle. This will CERTAINLY make me think twice about posting ANYTHING that you might decide to take into your own hands.

I could conceivably see instances where something was SO dangerous, outside of practices, and WOULD kill someone that the senior team would have to do something... but not like this taking joy out of it!

Don't take this wrong, I certainly advocate doing something about overtly dangerous situations to see... in person. There is a BIG difference between reporting something you see, and something you read on a forum.

My $0.02

 

[derekleffew]

...
Getting off my soap box now.
< un-clipping first>

No Van, you cannot un-clip until you are implanted on terra firma. Never leave yourself unprotected while at the dizzying, unfathomable heights of your soapbox.

 

[Floridaskye]

I gotta say it's to know where to start to respond to a post such as this.
I can tell you, you've never worked in any of the venues, and especially not the IATSE venues that I have toured through over the last 20 years. Are there times when it would be a lot easier to go about disabling saftey devices ? Sure. Is it a "common" practice? Not on my watch. As a TD you should know it is your responsibility to ensure the health/safety of those on your crews. Personally I find this post offensive and more than a little irresponsible.
Getting off my soap box now.
< un-clipping first>

Obviously you missed the point of my post. What I was saying is that we need to focus on using equipment the right way as an industry before we start quoting OSHA regulations. Also I never said I personally disabled any safety devices. You try telling an IATSE crew not to disable the safetys on their devices and see what you get. As a note these were equity tours that I am speaking of that came through the rental house I used to work in where I was just a lowly technician.

 

[Floridaskye]

Floridaskye, I have notified the Fort Lauderdale Area Office of your post and attitude toward Safety in the Workplace. You may expect a visit from them shortly.

I look forward to their visit so they can see just how safety conscious my Theatre is. You need to learn the difference between someone complaining about a problem and someone actually causing a problem.

 

[Footer]

You try telling an IATSE crew not to disable the safetys on their devices and see what you get.

You go to the BA and get a new hand in there.

I have had to tell the BA of an IA to get out of my shop because he was not wearing the proper safety gear. He had to comply otherwise he would have been out of a job. It really is that simple.