Control/Dimming Light Boards Compatible with CD80 Dimmer Rack

[jlepp06]

Hello:

I don't know much about the workings behind the CD80 Dimmer Rack, or any dimmer rack for that matter... anyways, here's my question.

My High School and Jr. High School Auditoriums are both equipped with a CD80 Dimmer Rack and a Strand Lighting Mantrix 2S Light Board.

The light boards are from the early 80's and have been used well past their time.

I was wondering if anyone knew of any other light boards that are compatible with the CD80 dimmer rack and what modifications would need to be done, if any.

The Mantrix 2S board has a female mini 4pin port on the back I believe it's a T4M? and the cable plugs into that then goes into the wall outlet which is a normal size 4pin port. AMX port, whatever you want to call it.

Now, as from what I read, Strand Lighting created the AMX deal with that board, then eliminated it very shortly after. I'm not sure if any other boards used that or not. I could be very wrong about that though.

Anyways, I'm not exactly wanting to switch the dimmer rack over to DMX, I've looked into the retrofit kits and stuff.

If we got a different board, would it be just a matter of switching the wall outlets to be the new connector, whatever that may be?

Or does anyone know of any boards that would work with the current setup?

Our boards are not very useful anymore. We've had them cleaned and inspected dozens of times, they are just worn out. You move up a slider and the lights flicker. You can't bring the slider all the way down or else the lights on that slider come on. The crossfade doesn't work anymore. Just everything. It resets itself out of nowhere.

Enough blabbing... Any info would be helpful.

Joel

 

[derekleffew]

With the availability of DMX-to-AMX protocol converters, there's no reason to limit oneself to a console that speaks native AMX-192 (CD80). See the recent threads AMX dimmer control? and DMX to CD-80 control?.

...Now, as from what I read, Strand Lighting created the AMX deal with that board, then eliminated it very shortly after. I'm not sure if any other boards used that or not. I could be very wrong about that though. ...

A (very abbreviated) history lesson:
Strand-Century released the CD80 dimmer and original Light Palette and Mantrix control consoles around 1979. Until 1986, when it was adopted as a standard by USITT, the protocol was known as CD80 or MUX, and was the predominant control during that time. Many manufacturers other than Strand-Century made compatible products. After 1986, when CD80 was adopted as AMX192, and DMX512 was introduced, almost all other manufacturers abandoned AMX, except Strand, which continued to (somewhat) support it, concurrently with DMX512, into the mid-90s. Today, I know of no new consoles that natively speak AMX. For more see Pathway Connectivity Inc. - Lighting Control Protocols - Part 2.

 

[Lotos]

With the availability of DMX-AMX protocol converters, there's no reason to limit oneself to a console that speaks native AMX-192 (CD80). See the recent thread AMX dimmer control?.

+1
I agree with that 100%... However, all that being said...

For an educational institute... Of highschool variety... Consider looking into a used Strand GSX or LBX... They'll do what you need, and do it well... They're mostly indestructable as well... Mostly.

 

[derekleffew]

...For an educational institute... Of highschool variety... Consider looking into a used Strand GSX or LBX... They'll do what you need, and do it well... They're mostly indestructable as well... Mostly. ...

It's likely the OP is not permitted to buy used equipment; at least one can hope so. Given the fervor created any time the two-year-discontinued Express is recommended, I can only imagine the reaction to the recommendation of a ten-year-discontinued system.

jlepp06, if it were me, I'd be looking into an ETC Element or Strand Basic Palette AND Pathway DMX Ultimate Converter or Fleenor DMX1AMX. A 5pin XLR M/F cable would go from the board to the converter, and a 4pin XLR M/F cable would go from the converter to the wall inlet. No in-wall wiring would need to be changed.

 

[Footer]

You have three options. Buy a used GSX that does output AMX. Buy a protocol converter and buy a DMX console. Have the rack refitted with either a strand upgrade unit or a Johnson Controls upgrade kit and buy a new console.

There is nothing wrong with your dimmers now. There is no reason to pull the rack and upgrade to say a sensor rack. However, for a few grand you can upgrade the "brains" of the rack to support DMX and even ACN (what is replacing DMX) and add a few useful features. Using a protocal converter is a band-aid on the system. They work, but your still dealing with AMX going to the dimmers and that protocol can really act up at times. Best thing to do now is to upgrade the controller in the rack.

Johnson controls makes two upgrade modules for your rack. Either the CD-2000 which will give you DMX input, some user controls, and the ability to have preset looks at control stations (house lights... etc). The CD-3000 unit adds the ability to use ACN and adds some power saving features as well as DMX and all that good stuff. Dimmer.com is a US distributor of Johnson Controls. I have worked with Johnson Controls CD80 units and they work flawlessly. Strand also makes CD-80 upgrade that puts the same interface that the C-21 units use in the rack. I have also used that upgrade kit and it works rather wall. However, it will require strand to come out and configure it. Though I don't suggest it, the Johnson Controls unit can be installed in a few minutes by anyone who is familiar with working on dimmers.

 

[jlepp06]

Thanks for all of the help thus far.

Unfortunately I'm not the on the purchasing end at these 2 schools.

I've tried getting the department in charge of those things to purchase one of the Johnson Systems retrofit kits, but the $6000 price was too much for them, seems stupid since they just passed a $99 Million dollar bond to update the district. They upgraded the 2 auditoriums slightly, they got all new curtains, and seating. But that's all. You'd think while the money isn't coming out of their pocket, they'd throw an extra $10,000 into each auditoium and purchase that retrofit kit and a new light board.

Oh well. I'm trying to find cheaper solutions. Unfortunatley it looks as though I'll have to do some more pushing, or purchase like the fleenor unit out of my own pocket if I want things to change. But, at least I'm learning some stuff from what you're all telling me.

I'll have more info to give them now.
Thanks!

 

[ptero]

I just want to agree with what the others have said. For well over 10 years, we have been running a variety of AMX (and analog!) dimmers with a DMX > AMX convertor. Our console is a Strand 520 with DMX ports.

btw, the convertor was about $900 10-12 years ago. Easy-peasy plug through as was suggested.

 

[Footer]

I just want to agree with what the others have said. For well over 10 years, we have been running a variety of AMX (and analog!) dimmers with a DMX > AMX convertor. Our console is a Strand 520 with DMX ports.

btw, the convertor was about $1,000 10-12 years ago. Easy-peasy plug through as was suggested.

The 520i is another solution. It does have AMX outs. However, it is a discontinued product as well.

 

[ptero]

The 520i is another solution. It does have AMX outs. However, it is a discontinued product as well.

The 520 has an AMX port as well. Also discontinued. But it seems they didn't really test their Strand AMX port with their own legacy Strand equipment(so rumors of the day went). The clock sync would burp every few minutes and everything would blink to get realigned. I'd be wary of Strand-built AMX of that era. We all pray you're not headed 'there' anyway, eh?

It took the ETC convertor to get rid of the annoying blinking. It's been solid for years now. These dimmers are rocks and just keep going. dangit.

 

[mstaylor]

The Fleenor convertor for 192 dimmers is between $1400.00 and $1500.00.

 

[strandcentury]

This must be one of em' old CD80 dimmers with the AMX192 card and not the DMX512. Easiest thing to do would be to purchase an AMX to DMX converter (Like from Johnson Systems), once installed -you can use any DMX lighting console of your choice. Or hunt down an older Strand Memory console with AMX support such as MX, LBX, GSX or LX, would definately own your Mantrix II.

 

[RickR]

The Fleenor or similar converter and a DMX console is the easies and almost certainly the cheapest way to go.

Yes used stuff is out there, but you'll be in the same spot in a few years. But without the cash you have now. If anything look for a used converter, it's life is limited by the CD80 and they don't fail often.

 

[Footer]

This must be one of em' old CD80 dimmers with the AMX192 card and not the DMX512. Easiest thing to do would be to purchase an AMX to DMX converter (Like from Johnson Systems), once installed -you can use any DMX lighting console of your choice. Or hunt down an older Strand Memory console with AMX support such as MX, LBX, GSX or LX, would definately own your Mantrix II.

The Johnson systems upgrade does not do any AMX to DMX converting. It is a replacement for all of the control hardware in the rack. It interfaces directly with the physical dimmers.

 

[derekleffew]

...There is nothing wrong with your dimmers now. There is no reason to pull the rack and upgrade to say a sensor rack. ...

Perhaps someone, (cough*Icewolf/SteveB*cough), could comment on why his venue replaced CD80s with Sensor+.

... Using a protocal converter is a band-aid on the system. They work, but your still dealing with AMX going to the dimmers and that protocol can really act up at times. ...

Considering that the original installation has been working successfully for some twenty-five years, one would think AMX "acting up at times" is not really an issue here, no?

...to purchase an AMX to DMX converter ...-you can use any DMX lighting console of your choice. ...

...do any AMX to DMX converting. ...

As with adapters (Male End FIRST!), protocol converters are specified as <what the console speaks> to <what the dimmers listen to>. Thus a DMX-to-AMX device is what is desired here.

 

[Lotos]

Considering that the original installation has been working successfully for some twenty-five years, one would think AMX "acting up at times" is not really an issue here, no?

Probably not... But, there's always sketchyness to be had when using a convertor... Granted, 9 times out of 10, it'll be fine...

BUT

At work, I have two... DMX -> AMX convertors... Half the CD80 dimming I have is AMX, the other half is DMX... Oi, it's a pain... But beside the point.

The 'Gray Box' we had for years worked fine, until we upgraded our console... It liked the DMX that the Strand LBX had been spitting out... But wasn't entirely fond of the DMX that the Strand Light Palette VL spat out... AMX trouble abound...

So now we have an ETC Response DMX -> AMX convertor in between the Strand Console, and the Strand Dimmers (The irony, as I've said before, is ridiculous)...

 

[SteveB]

Perhaps someone, (cough*Icewolf/SteveB*cough), could comment on why his venue replaced CD80s with Sensor+.

.

Sorry Derek, I saw CD80 on the OP and tuned out.

Actually our venue - Brooklyn Center at Brooklyn College, replaced 64 Strand model 600 analog dimmers as well as the 1955 patch panel, as well as all the electrical wiring and circuiting dating to that time. We went Sensor with new wiring and circuit distribution. We steadily upgraded the control heads - Strand Century Multi-Q from '79 to '84, then a Colortran Prestige 2000 from '84 to '95, then a Leprecon 1500 and Microvision till '99, then an Express 48 with Emphasis added in '04 and now an Ion.

As others have stated, the dimmers can work for a long time, our Strand 600's were in place for 27 years with minimal maintenance and only a Colortran Analog to Digitial converter added, which itself lasted 20 years. Our adjacent venue - the Gershwin Theater still has it's Strand 600's, 30 years later.

The control heads we replace more frequently as 8-10 years seems to be about the avg. useful lifespan. By useful I mean being reliable and having the technology to support current practice.

Thus I agree that there's no need to replace CD80's, but I would recommend the Johnston Controls replacement control modules, or if that's too expensive, I would add a DMX to AMX convertor and put the money into a new control head.

For all you know, the local Strand rep. may be so hard up to sell product that he'll get you into a Strand Palette console AND a new control module for the rack, for a very reasonable price.

Steve B.

 

[icewolf08]

Perhaps someone, (cough*Icewolf/SteveB*cough), could comment on why his venue replaced CD80s with Sensor+.

I don't know what the age of our CD-80 Dimmers were when they were replaced. I know that at the time of replacement they were DMX compatible, but I didn't spend a ton of time with them and I didn't know their history. I do know that they went through at least one building renovation where the racks were moved and rewired, and I know that there was also a distribution remodel where the racks were rewired as they moved around which raceways and drop boxes were where.

I do know that we were getting to a point where it was costing more than we wanted to keep the racks operational and also the amount of man-hours spent keeping them tuned was a lot. The move to Sensor+ made a word of difference. Almost every regular designer noticed the much higher precision of control, smoother curves, and the fact that I didn't have to continually fiddle with the racks.

In general CD80s should be rock solid dimmers. I don't know what it was that made ours less so because many live in much harsher environments. However, as with many things at my theatre, they probably pinched every penny when they bought them originally, it wouldn't surprise me if they were used or had been on demo or something. The theatre told me we were getting new dimers and I was happy, bow I am waiting for them to give me the money to do the control systems!

 

[pathway]

A little more CD80 history:

From their introduction in 1979 to 1989, all CD80 racks (and packs, as well as Environ-II dimmer panels) used a fairly rudimentary AMX decoding scheme based on a whole whack of CMOS logic and R-C based timing circuitry, but no microprocessor. That design, which was prone to the effects of aging and temperature, has been responsible for much of the flakiness associated with the older CD80's. On the other hand, if a given installation is still working well today there's no reason to think that will change anytime soon.

In 1989 the CD80AE (Advanced Electronics) was intro'd and that was basically a new set of brains which gave you a few more features, most importantly DMX512 (and AMX) compatibility but also programmable analog inputs and backup presets. These racks needed a CD80AE handheld programmer to set up the advanced features. You have an AE rack if there are multiple plug-in cards at the bottom with individual metal faceplates.

The Johnson Systems retrofit will work with all CD80 and AE racks.

The CD80SV (Supervisor) in 1994 was a complete redesign, including new dimmer modules not plug-compatible with the older ones.

 

[jlepp06]

In 1989 the CD80AE (Advanced Electronics) was intro'd and that was basically a new set of brains which gave you a few more features, most importantly DMX512 (and AMX) compatibility but also programmable analog inputs and backup presets. These racks needed a CD80AE handheld programmer to set up the advanced features. You have an AE rack if there are multiple plug-in cards at the bottom with individual metal faceplates.

The Johnson Systems retrofit will work with all CD80 and AE racks.

Could you clarify a little more about the whole CD80AE and the addition of the feature of "DMX512 (and AMX)".

I know our system is a CD80AE.
I know nothing about the whole "programmable analog inputs and backup presets and or the handheld programmer".

Interesting to learn that these are supposed to have more features.

 

[RickBoychuk]

Yet, be aware that 30 year old electronic circuitry (and that is what AMX is) is very old. It is going to fail. And I would bet two things; it will fail relatively soon, and it will fail as you are heading into your big production.

The Johnson system will give you another 30 year working life (subjective projection). What is that at $6000 - $200 dollars a year. Cheap.