Control/Dimming Lighting Controller Suggestions for Church

trpullen

trpullen

Member
Hi all. I am a newbie here but have read a great number of threads in the past year or so before finally pulling the trigger and joining. Our church has been given a generous gift in order to upgrade our visuals and add more flexibility to the platform.

We currently have an ETC Express 48/96 that serves us very well. We have 80 or so channel of conventional dimming in the building. We have recently added a number (18 Chauvet ColorDash Pars and 8 ColorKey (36 1W) Pars) of LED lights to augment mostly ellipsoidals. We are looking to add some intelligent and moving stuff to the mix and have been told that the Express is just not the board for this.

We initially looked at the ETC ION 1000 + Fader Wing which will no doubt do the job but is very expensive and maybe more board than we need. We want to make sure we are getting the most bang for the buck.

We have had a few suggestions from local supply houses that include the Jands Vista software and the Lepracon LPC. One of our members also has some experience with the Elation CompuLive stuff.

Searches of this site turn up plenty of hits on the Jands stuff and even a few on the Compulive but nothing on the LPC board.

Any advice or info you can give would be very helpful. Budget would like to keep this in the $10K range or less. If less, we can really focus on more/better MLs.

Thanks in advance.
 
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Probably the best choice is actually the newer ETC Element, IMO. Utilizing as a base the EOS Family software shared with the ION, it allows many advanced functions from the EOS and ION in a more budget friendly package. It has integrated Channel Fader/Submasters, with a dial that allows selection between Channels and different Sub Pages. It is available in 250 or 500 channels, either 40 or 60 Faders. Keep in mind, unlike the Express, in which each channel can only control one conventional fixture, one group of ganged conventional fixtures, or one parameter of one LED/ML/DMX accessory or one parameter of one group of LED/ML/DMX Accessory, each channel on the Element can control a conventional or group of conventionals and all the parameters of their DMX accessories, or all parameters of an LED/ML or group of LED/ML's. Surely, you need to make sure the LEDs/MLs/DMX Accessories really want to do the same thing at exactly the same time. Even so, using 1 channel for each LED/ML fixture rather than anywhere from 3 to 16 or even 32 means that the base Element would probably be more than adequate for what you intend to do, even upon expanding your lighting package in the future. Also, IMO, the virtual ML controls are easy to bring up and use, as are the LED controls. Finally, the current EOS software is excellent, and the people at ETC are always working to make it better. So far, each upgrade has been completely free. With version 1.9.8 in beta and 2.0 probably on the way, buying an Element today will still mean a good amount of support and enhancements in the future at little or no cost.
 
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Thanks for the suggestion. I will do some research on the Element.

They have offered us a couple week trial on the LPC so it may be fun to see how it differs. I think it has the touch screen with it.
 
Not necessarily but the Element is closer to what you have been using so the learning curve is less. A computor solution is possible but again the curve is high. The LPC is fine but if you use volunteers is harder to just hand off the board. Plus if you park things for any reason, you will cease to be able to do that.
 
trpullen said:
Thanks for the suggestion. I will do some research on the Element.

They have offered us a couple week trial on the LPC so it may be fun to see how it differs. I think it has the touch screen with it.
Click to expand...

It seems the LPC comes with a touchscreen. Honestly, with the way the Element integrates its keypad and controls is a bit more standard than the LPC and does not require a touchscreen to get the best out of it, at least based on my experiences. It can also use two screens versus one, and has a iRFR that can be used with any Apple iPod Touch, iPhone, or iPad and a wireless router to channel check, build cues, or run cues. Also, the Element is lower priced from what I can tell. Not that Leprecon is bad, but ETC has built up a rather large following with the EOS family, well beyond what the Express(ion) family did, and is investing time and resources that Leprecon just can not.

You can start with the Element in Cue Only using some basic Expression language, and work sufficiently for quite a bit of programming before you find something outside how the Express handles things except for timing of cues and patch, which is much improved. Rather than requiring entering past down time, you must now hit time a second time or hit slash to create a separate down time. Patching is easier as you can go by Channel or Dimmer and hit @ versus enter, which makes sense as you are saying a fixture is at a certain address. Also, there are more shortcuts allowing you to more quickly patch moving fixtures/LED fixtures or ranges of fixtures.

PS: I would stay away from most software solutions except in situations where the users are quite advanced with lighting and lighting programs. MagicQ does have a learning curve that is actually quite long for those of us used to programming ETC or Strand consoles. The lack of physical handles may confuse people who have no experience and expect to be able just to go, "Oh! This fader makes it look like this!"
 
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jglodeklights said:
It seems the LPC comes with a touchscreen. Honestly, with the way the Element integrates its keypad and controls is a bit more standard than the LPC and does not require a touchscreen to get the best out of it, at least based on my experiences. It can also use two screens versus one, and has a iRFR that can be used with any Apple iPod Touch, iPhone, or iPad and a wireless router to channel check, build cues, or run cues. Also, the Element is lower priced from what I can tell. Not that Leprecon is bad, but ETC has built up a rather large following with the EOS family, well beyond what the Express(ion) family did, and is investing time and resources that Leprecon just can not.

You can start with the Element in Cue Only using some basic Expression language, and work sufficiently for quite a bit of programming before you find something outside how the Express handles things except for timing of cues and patch, which is much improved. Rather than requiring entering past down time, you must now hit time a second time or hit slash to create a separate down time. Patching is easier as you can go by Channel or Dimmer and hit @ versus enter, which makes sense as you are saying a fixture is at a certain address. Also, there are more shortcuts allowing you to more quickly patch moving fixtures/LED fixtures or ranges of fixtures.

PS: I would stay away from most software solutions except in situations where the users are quite advanced with lighting and lighting programs. MagicQ does have a learning curve that is actually quite long for those of us used to programming ETC or Strand consoles. The lack of physical handles may confuse people who have no experience and except to be able just to go, "Oh! This fader makes it look like this!"
Click to expand...

This is golden. Thanks.

I watched the video on using ML with the Element....very cool. Looks like there is a great combination of what the Express is plus the feel of software for the ML positioning.
 
Personally I cannot stand the lpc. Everyone I know who uses one I tell them to try out an avolites console and they are hooked. The lpc is very slow to respond to user input. It slows me down and I lose my train of thought. I should not have to wait for a console to accept that I pushed a button. I have used several of the lpc consoles and still the same problem. I always disable the touch screen because it speeds it up a little. The avolites consoles are practically identical in terms of programming syntax. I would suggest demoing the element. Also look into the hog line of consoles made by high end systems. They are very close to the same programming as the express. I rent them out to high schools a lot and the students don't have any trouble transitioning from the express to the hog. The vista is a nice console but it has a totally different style of programming. You program your show using a time line rather than a cue list so it's like editing video. The hog, vista, and element all have remote capabilities so you can use a laptop to remotely control the desk.
 
Good info on the LPC. I can't wait till the new iPhone comes out because my old 3G is killing me waiting for something to happen after a press. I totally get where you are coming from there.

I would probably dig the timeline as I am a video guy and a Flash/DHTML programmer too. BUT...I can see where that might not be the best for folks more used to a cuelist.

What Hog board is most analogous to the Element?
 
The road hog would be a nice solution for you. The road hog, road hog full boar would both fit your needs. The difference is the road hog does not have network support so you could not connect to it. The full boar does. Both the road hog and the full boar supports up to 2048 channels of dmx. With the hog and vista lines of consoles that means you can have 2048 channels you are not limited to 500 like with etc. You never know when you may have a special event and cross rent a bunch of fixtures. With movers you hit the 500 limit quickly. The full boar since it is expandable and has network support it can also run art net so it is future proofing. Also by adding on dmx processors you can have an unlimited amout of dmx and control channels. The hog consoles accomplish this by spitting out the data over hog net to the network attached processors. The processors then handle the data so no matter how many dmx universes you are using the processors handle the processing so it does not slow down the console. The vista also has the same amout of dmx channels and is expandable. I would look at the T2 console. The jands console also has a cue list window for those who are used to looking at cue lists but the time line makes things much easier.
 
I was wondering about that with the Element. It says 500 channels but also says 1024 outputs. I am not sure I understand that. I assume that means my 99 conventional channels eat a real 99 channels. However, my LEDs in 9 channel mode (162 channels) and my ColorKeys in 6 channel mode (48)... do they count against my 500 or my 1024?

That is 309 channels before we start with any movers.
 
I am not a Hog user so I can't speak to it other than it is an excellent board. I haven't actually used an Element either, I have used both an Express and Ions. I assume you can set subs on the Element so you can hand the board off to a volunteer. I am fairly sure the same is true for the Hogs but having not sat behind one I am not sure. The other question is the cost difference between the two.
 
1024 is the number of dimmer outputs, the 500 is the number of channels the console allows. For example, you can take your 99 conventional dimmer and patch them all into channel 1 (you probably wouldn't want to do this) however for explanation purposes let's say you did. That would mean all 99 conventionals would turn on at the same time when you brought up channel 1. Thus, out of your 500 available channels you still have 499 and out of you 1024 dimmer outputs, you have 925 left.

That being said, let's talk about it logically, if you have 20 conventionals that make up a blue backwash on stage you may want to put all of those in the same channel so they operate at the same time (not necessarily but in theory) same would go for a cool front wash of 10 fixtures or 20 and so on, and on.

I hope this makes sense, perhaps i'm telling you something you already know, hope this helps.
 
joeboo46 said:
1024 is the number of dimmer outputs, the 500 is the number of channels the console allows. For example, you can take your 99 conventional dimmer and patch them all into channel 1 (you probably wouldn't want to do this) however for explanation purposes let's say you did. That would mean all 99 conventionals would turn on at the same time when you brought up channel 1. Thus, out of your 500 available channels you still have 499 and out of you 1024 dimmer outputs, you have 925 left.

That being said, let's talk about it logically, if you have 20 conventionals that make up a blue backwash on stage you may want to put all of those in the same channel so they operate at the same time (not necessarily but in theory) same would go for a cool front wash of 10 fixtures or 20 and so on, and on.

I hope this makes sense, perhaps i'm telling you something you already know, hope this helps.
Click to expand...

Got it. That was what I was thinking but wanted to make sure I was not out on a limb.
 
TimMiller said:
...With the hog and vista lines of consoles that means you can have 2048 channels you are not limited to 500 like with etc. You never know when you may have a special event and cross rent a bunch of fixtures. With movers you hit the 500 limit quickly. ...
Click to expand...
Note that ETC handles "channels" differently than most other consoles. A channel can be a single dimmer, group of dimmers at the same level, or all the parameter s of a moving light. It's highly unlikely you'll run out of channels before DMX outputs. With a 250 ch. Element, you could run 240 discrete dimmers, and 10 MLs that take up to 78 DMX channels each.

trpullen said:
I was wondering about that with the Element. It says 500 channels but also says 1024 outputs. I am not sure I understand that. I assume that means my 99 conventional channels eat a real 99 channels. However, my LEDs in 9 channel mode (162 channels) and my ColorKeys in 6 channel mode (48)... do they count against my 500 or my 1024?

That is 309 channels before we start with any movers.
Click to expand...
That's 309 outputs/addresses (DMX channels) but as far as control channels:
99 conventionals (can probably reduce this by softpatching dimmers together)
18 LEDs in 8-ch mode
8 ColorKeys in 6-ch mode
Total of 125 control channels. 375 control channels left, 715 DMX channels left.
 
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derekleffew said:
Note that ETC handles "channels" differently than most other consoles. A channel can be a single dimmer, group of dimmers at the same level, or all the parameter s of a moving light. It's highly unlikely you'll run out of channels before DMX outputs. With a 250 ch. Element, you could run 240 discrete dimmers, and 10 MLs that take up to 78 DMX channels each.

That's 309 outputs/addresses (DMX channels) but as far as control channels:
99 conventionals (can probably reduce this by softpatching dimmers together)
18 LEDs in 8-ch mode
8 ColorKeys in 6-ch mode
Total of 125 control channels. 375 control channels left, 715 DMX channels left.
Click to expand...


Yeah, that is very cool. I watched the intro video and love how no matter how many DMX channels a fixture takes, it only takes one board channel. I doubt 500 would be a problem in that world.
 
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