Lighting fixture budget advice

[AudJ]

I have been asked to form a budget for lighting fixtures in our middle school auditorium. Common sense tells me to call in some vendors to show us what they can offer, however, I have been specifically told not to do that. (? Weird) When we get the go-ahead with funding, we will call in the appropriate demos, bidders etc.

The immediate need is to replace RBAW Major strip lights, but I would like to develop a plan to eventually replace everything. Administration wants a round dollar estimate, which will determine what method they use to pursue funding.

The stage is a 40'wx38'dx20' proscenium, with 3 electrics typically between 16' and 18', and a 4th electric paired with the first for specials. Each electric has 1 constant (non-dim) circuit, with the ability to create more by swapping modules. There is no installed dmx, but we are running a Shownet network, and have dmx nodes that I can add to the electrics. Relatively recent C21 and Preset Pallette.

Stage is used for school concerts 14 times each year, rented out concerts/meetings about 6-10 times each year, and 1 major musical, which we like to over-do. Recent upgrades have begun to increase rentals, and we are hoping to attract a few more.

The obvious sticking point will be LED vs. Tungsten. I will have to present the facts and hope for the best.

Anyway, the questions:

1. Stick with strip lights, or go Fresnels? (or does it even make a difference if we just need a budget number?)
2. Is the a specific fixture you like for concert/general stage lighting?
3. Other thoughts to consider?
4. Any advice (be nice) on responding to my administration regarding the request for me to provide budget numbers without asking the people who know the numbers and what fixtures will function appropriately?

 

[Amiers]

I would make three budgets, what you want, what you need, and the bare minimum with a few extras thrown in there. Them not wanting you to bring in outside opinions for the space seems off putting as it sounds like they want to get something for nothing. Personally it sounds like they are sending you on a wild goose chase.

 

[BillConnerFASTC]

How many dimmed circuits each electric?

 

[RickR]

These application notes from ETC might help.

Note that the Selador "Classic" fixtures while less expensive than the "Desire" line are also not as bright and might not be cost saving.

Note that you will have to contact some dealer sometime. After all how else will you get prices? A little informal chat is not the same as a design contract. I suspect they don't want someone complaining about how the deal was put together. Keep clear notes on what folks say and don't make promises about who to buy from. Assume that everything will have to go through a formal, state controlled bid process. If it gets easier then everyone is happy.

 

[JChenault]

A few additional questions.

What is broken about the system you are replacing. Do you just want to replace the overhead lights with something for concerts and orchestras, or do you want more FOH instruments and more theatrical units on stage?

Re the administration not wanting you to go to go to a vendor. You might ask them the question of ' Why not talk to someone'. I could imagine a number of reasons in their head.

• In the past, vendors have put together wildly extravagant systems. ( at least in the administrations mind).
• They don't want to let the world know they are starting this project as they don't want the vendors to bug them.
• They are afraid you might make some kind of commitment they are not comfortable with.
  
• They could just be putting together a budget number, and don't want to make you go to the trouble of a detailed analysis.

But I am only speculating. Ask them and see what they say.

 

[BillConnerFASTC]

Note that you will have to contact some dealer sometime. After all how else will you get prices?

We provide estimates all the time without a dealer, based on bidding for many projects. A dealer wont for good reason reveal what they will bid prior to the actual bid. I agree that it's just about impossible for someone who doesn't do this regularly to provide estimates and I would simply advise using list price and qualifying it as such.

 

[AudJ]

How many dimmed circuits each electric?

From front:
Downstage bar: 16 circuits (in pairs) + 1 non-dim
Downstage bar: 6 circuits

Middle Bar: 10 circuits (in pairs) + 1 non-dim

Upstage Bar 8 circuits (in pairs) + 1 non-dim


I agree this is nuts. From my questions on building a sound system, you can see my district does not always do things in a good order, and expects us to figure out the mess.

 

[AudJ]

A few additional questions.

What is broken about the system you are replacing. Do you just want to replace the overhead lights with something for concerts and orchestras, or do you want more FOH instruments and more theatrical units on stage?

Re the administration not wanting you to go to go to a vendor. You might ask them the question of ' Why not talk to someone'. I could imagine a number of reasons in their head.

• In the past, vendors have put together wildly extravagant systems. ( at least in the administrations mind).
• They don't want to let the world know they are starting this project as they don't want the vendors to bug them.
• They are afraid you might make some kind of commitment they are not comfortable with.
  
• They could just be putting together a budget number, and don't want to make you go to the trouble of a detailed analysis.

But I am only speculating. Ask them and see what they say.

I have spoken to them - they don't want to "taint" the bidding process. If they go through a capital improvement project, there are different rules to follow than if they are using a regular bid process. Until they know the general amount, they don't know which rules apply. That being said, I think everything you list plays some part as well.

The electrical was updated 4 years ago, and fixtures were cut from the project because they ran out of $. At that time, all of the existing fixtures were updated to the correct 3 pin connector for the new system. When we did the "Majors", most of the wiring had degraded due to heat. The wiring was replaced with new wire that matched the original wiring (not teflon), and not done "appropriately" (there are some bare wire hots within the fixtures covered in electrical tape). The short answer is, they will fail when the new wire goes through enough heat exposure. It was a temporary solution, and done without my input. The temporary solution is making me nervous, in addition, they take a standard A19 lamp at 150w, which are getting harder to come by.

I should also mention that the weight of the electrical bars and the Majors has maxed the arbor on the middle and upstage bars, making the unused circuits useless, because there is no more arbor to hang lights there.

It would be great to find a versatile lighting instrument that does it all, but... Everyone is used to the light strip concept, and LEDs would be a nice upgrade, without upsetting the apple cart of general users. I wonder if the transition to Fresnels might be better long term. Ideally I would like to see both, but that will never happen.

 

[BillConnerFASTC]

This requires more work and understanding than I can do remotely and for free, but I'd generally say get rid of strip lights and you need about 60-75 focusing units overstage. In quartz, I'd say with accessories, $30,000. LED and that is probably $60,000. Hybrid is, I guess by default, $45,000. Round numbers. Since you have the dimmers, LED will never pay back, but will be less work (relamping and color), less energy used, and just about removes chance of a light ever starting a fire. They're also more "state of the art", "modern", or "not in the dark ages". There is some value to not buying products that were essentially innovative 50-100 years ago.

 

[carproelsofly]

The concert hall in our PAC recently replaced their striplights with Vivid-Rs. They were a huge improvement in both intensity and control, and use no additional media and very little power.

Because of the power savings, they were able to get some of the cost covered by a grant - something to look into if you head down the LED path.

In that house (much taller than your room, but not much larger otherwise) he has eight ERS tips, three ERS specials, and six PARs per batten. That, along with the Vivids for down wash, seems to cover almost all on-stage needs. All of the conventionals are S4, with 19/26/36-degree barrels available for all tips/specials, and the standard four lenses for the PARs.

At some point you may run into control limitations by going to LEDs (they are channel-hungry), but that may be a subject for another round of budgeting...

The idea of making three lists is great - price everything the best you can by looking at vendor websites, knowing that you might be able to add in a few more items from the "wish list" when the bids come in lower than the single-item price.

HTH,
Jen

 

[RickR]

I'd say take Bill's 3 numbers to them as a conversation piece. If there are heart attacks at hearing $30K then you know where you sit. If you go LED then do consider the console.

If they really want a "clean" process then they should hire a theatrical consultant to do the detailed work. Your role would then be to state the program goals and help the administrators understand theatrical needs. With a good design from expert advise based on your specifics you can go to bid confident that the end result will be worth the effort. Otherwise you are playing the role of consultant, which you may or may not be comfortable doing.

 

[AudJ]

Help me with the console. If we go LED, am I looking to upgrade or replace the Preset palette II (just noticed the II if that makes any difference)? As much as I would love to replace it, I doubt that will happen in my lifetime -low bid. They want me to write up justifications for going LED (no problem), but they didn't flinch too much when I said the cost could exceed 60k. The custodial office was actually pushing in that direction. The thought of never needing to relamp had him drooling.

What kind of Channel count are we looking at for the console? When we purchased it, we did upgrade the count, anticipating this sort of thing. I will have to check, but I think we have double the standard, which I think makes it 250, maybe 500? I won't be in my office again to check for a week, but what would be needed? Any other criteria to be concerned with regarding control?

 

[kicknargel]

You wouldn't necessarily need to upgrade the console to go to LED, it would just limit your individual control of the fixtures. Right now you probably have control of each color on each bar of strip lights. All the DS red, etc. You'd still be able to have that. The LEDs would provide the option of controlling each unit (12" wide or whatever) individually, but that would likely take more channels than you have.

 

[gafftaper]

If I remember right with Strand the issue is not a channel limit it's a fixture limit. I think the Preset Palette can do up to 8,000 channels. So double check all that. You may have lots of room for more LED fixtures. The Preset Palette is a fine board for running LED's, but as has been said you may have to give up some individual control just to keep it managable.

At this point, my vote is for incandescent front lights, preferably with some Seachangers or scrollers to give you color flexibility from the front. Few LED fixtures are up to the task of front light at this point. Then cram your stage with as many LED's as you can. The ETC Source Four Cyc lights are good but don't quite have the punch I want. I would prefer the ETC Seledor Classic- Vivid-R Strip lights for cycs. The Altman Spectra Cyc 200 (LED Cyc lights) are another great alternative. However that said, LED cyc lights from ETC or Altman will start at a minimum of about $20,000. With your limited stage use, incandescents are probably a better way to go.

Two final points:

1) You are doing this backwards. The correct way to go about this is to say, we have "$X to spend what can I get for it".
2) If the district is so worked up about the bid process on this you should seriously look at hiring a consultant. My guess is $2k-$3k you could hire a professional consultant to do a nice full report for you. Or if that's too much call around your local theater community/university and find a good lighting designer. I bet you can find someone who is highly skilled who would be happy to design a nice rep plot and instrument package for you for $1000.