Lighting Fixture Pulley

[Hugtrain]

Hi,

On a recent trip to see my uncle who works at the Opera Philidelphia, I was at the Wilma as they unloaded "10 days in a madhouse." It was the first time I had seen a loadout of a professional show.
I also happened to notice that when they were lowering the lights above the house, they appeared to be using tieline to make a pulley, with two people on either side gently lowering the light.

At my theater, the only one who is allowed, insured, not busy, and willing to climb the shaky ladder to the pipes above the house is our drama teacher. He is a little worried about taking the lights down with him on the ladder and I was wondering if I could employ the same pulley thing I saw in Philly. We only have Source 4 jr Zooms above the house and a big spool of tieline. I tied the trickline to a safety cable with a sailor's knot (I believe). I then stepped on the cable with my foot and pulled on the tieline with all my force and it held well.

So now I have some questions about safety:

Is it a standard practice?
Is this safe or is it better for him to just climb down the ladder with the light?
If so, is the Sailor's knot appropriate, or should I use a different one?
Should I tie it to the safety cable so I can detach it easily, or is it safer to tie it to the fixture itself?
How long should the line be? (The greatest height from the seats to the pipe is 18 feet and, at the lowest, 10 feet)

Thanks!

 

[derekleffew]

Is it a standard practice?

Is this safe or is it better for him to just climb down the ladder with the light?
If so, is the Sailor's knot appropriate, or should I use a different one?
Should I tie it to the safety cable so I can detach it easily, or is it safer to tie it to the fixture itself?
How long should the line be? (The greatest height from the seats to the pipe is 18 feet and, at the lowest, 10 feet)

Standard practice is to use climber's rope and climbing sheave.

Moving Up or Down on a ladder with something in a hand removes that hand from the equation: three points of contact with the ladder at all times.

If just a conventional, a clove-hitch around the yoke is fine.

A "fancy" though actually simple and elegant method. Tie a 8-12" bowline in the end of your rope. Facing the fixture with yoke up, clamp on top, lens down, stick the entire bowline under the yoke, then open the bowline to put the clamp thru. It sounds more complicated than it is. Maybe I'll take a picture later.

With a bowline at each end of the rope, they never need to be untied and provide a good stop to prevent the rope from running out of the pulley. With a heavy moving light, much care needs to be taken to temporarily mount the block directly above where the ML will hang. This will likely involve sling(s) other carabiner(s), and so forth.
Three people needed, one UP two DOWN. The lower people actually do all of the work, heavy lifting as it were.

Tieline Regular #4 mason's chord is way too small as lifting line. In mind 1/2" or thereabouts is best. The haul line needs to be at least twice as long as your fixture position's height.

 

[RonaldBeal]

From tieline? never heard of that.
From a rated static rope? all the time.
Catwalks, Truss, and electrics that can't be lowered because they are above scenery that can't be easily broken apart, are all regular candidates for using rope and sheave to lower fixtures.
For lightweight fixtures, a 1 to 1 redirecting pulley is fine. (make sure all hardware and softgoods used are rated!)
For heavy moving lights, either two lines or using a 2 to 1 or even 3 to one mechanical advantage haul system is recommended.

 

[Hugtrain]

Standard practice is to use climber's rope and climbing sheave.

Moving Up or Down on a ladder with something in a hand removes that hand from the equation: three points of contact with the ladder at all times.

If just a conventional, a clove-hitch around the yoke is fine.

A "fancy" though actually simple and elegant method. Tie a 8-12" bowline in the end of your rope. Facing the fixture with yoke up, clamp on to, lens down, sticking the entire bowline under the yoke, then and open the line to put the lamp thru. It sounds more complicated than it is. Maybe I'll take a picture later.

Three people needed, one UP two DOWN. The lower people actually do all of the work, heavy lifting as it were.

Tieline Regular #4 mason's chord is way too small as lifting line. In mind 1/2" or thereabouts is best. Needs to be twice as long as your fixture position's height.

Thanks!

 

[Hugtrain]

From tieline? never heard of that.

Yeah, I just conflated the two because at the theater in Philly it was a thin black cord.

 

[Crisp image]

I use ropes and pulleys all the time to raise and lower fixtures. From out FOH bridge to the ground and back up with a 12kg fixture is just a 1:1 (rope through a redirection pulley) but for moving lights I use a 3:1 "Z" pulley system that self locks so "if" I let go of the rope the fixture does not come plummeting down.
Also remember that most of the time when using a rope to haul the pulley needs to be above the final resting point (above the bar) so when the light has been raised all that has to happen is a slight nudge to get it to the bar without taking the full weight of the light especially if it is a mover or something heavy. I will often sling a mover under the mounting brackets that hold the clamps so when the fixture is at the right height I can push it to the right place and have it lowered a little so it lands on the mounting place. Then once secured I can remove the sling (most likely 5-6mm kernmantle rope in a prusik loop) from under the brackets and it has not interfered with the hooks at all. Removing is the opposite procedure.
As others have said taking a fixture up a ladder is not recommended.
Stay Safe
Geoff

 

[techieman33]

I would never use tie line. It might handle the weight of conventionals when it's new, but it wouldn't take much damage before it wasn't strong enough. The other problem is that it wouldn't be at all comfortable for the user. Your much better off going to your local big box store and getting something like 1/2" or 5/8" rope by the foot that will be able to handle the weight, and be much more comfortable for the user.

 

[Hugtrain]

I would never use tie line. It might handle the weight of conventionals when it's new, but it wouldn't take much damage before it wasn't strong enough. The other problem is that it wouldn't be at all comfortable for the user. Your much better off going to your local big box store and getting something like 1/2" or 5/8" rope by the foot that will be able to handle the weight, and be much more comfortable for the user.

We don't plan on lowering heavy lights. Just a few Source Fours over the house.

 

[Crisp image]

I would never use tie line.

Can you define tie line for me? It can be anything from 4mm to 25mm depending what you wish to tie. And of course anything under 11mm is too hard on the hands to grip and haul or control I find.

 

[techieman33]

In the US at least tie line is 1/8" (3.17mm for you metric types) cotton line with a polyester core. It's primarily used in short pieces for tying up things like curtains and cables to battens or truss. But it also gets used for a lot of other light duty things since every theater usually has a bucket full of short pieces and at least one roll that can be used for other things like hanging banners. I've seen it listed as having a minimum breaking strength of 80-100lbs (36-45kg) but it's not really rated for lifting.

 

[jtweigandt]

When I lower a light this way, I usually use thick rope (easy for the hands) and tie on a decent quality carabiner, so that there is no futzing knots at the top of the ladder.
Rarely anything heavier than a source four, but we did raise our new LED elipses this way. I clamp on the carabiner.. let the ground know it's on, they put it under light tension, then I undo the clamp bolt with the safety cable still on. Then safety cable off .... then take the light off the bar and let the ground take up the load and lower it.

Rather than a pulley arrangement, I just throw the line over the top of the bar, and communicate with the person on the ground when I"m going to turn the load over to them gently
The friction of the bar is actually a good thing in this instance. Hard hats and watch that they're not directly under the fixture.

I also have to confess slogging lots of fresnels and source fours up and down a step ladder over the years.

 

[almorton]

I've heard that three points of contact at all times can include stomach, especially if it's a bit "luxuriously upholstered"

 

[TimMc]

I've heard that three points of contact at all times can include stomach, especially if it's a bit "luxuriously upholstered"

Only if the belly has a functioning, opposable thumb.

A couple of years ago when some folks were "experiencing" all kinds of alleged wild reactions to the Covid vaccines, I swear I grew a prehensile tail. Sadly it fell off before the thumb appeared. That would have been the biggest improvement in electricians and carpenters in 200 years of theater.

 

[jglodeklights]

Standard practice is to use climber's rope and climbing sheave.

Moving Up or Down on a ladder with something in a hand removes that hand from the equation: three points of contact with the ladder at all times.

If just a conventional, a clove-hitch around the yoke is fine.

A "fancy" though actually simple and elegant method. Tie a 8-12" bowline in the end of your rope. Facing the fixture with yoke up, clamp on top, lens down, stick the entire bowline under the yoke, then open the bowline to put the clamp thru. It sounds more complicated than it is. Maybe I'll take a picture later.
View attachment 25021
With a bowline at each end of the rope, they never need to be untied and provide a good stop to prevent the rope from running out of the pulley. With a heavy moving light, much care needs to be taken to temporarily mount the block directly above where the ML will hang. This will likely involve sling(s) other carabiner(s), and so forth.
Three people needed, one UP two DOWN. The lower people actually do all of the work, heavy lifting as it were.

Tieline Regular #4 mason's chord is way too small as lifting line. In mind 1/2" or thereabouts is best. The haul line needs to be at least twice as long as your fixture position's height.

I can confirm from working at the Wilma and still knowing the house crew this is the way they do it (as does most of Philly). NOT regular tieline. I feel like most of their ropes just happen to be black. What is really fun at the Wilma is lowering scenery in with various rigging setups- the deck is 14' below the loading door w/ no real elevator because the deck goes right up to the loading bay. Was fun getting 20' tall Simpsons' heads in for Mr. Burns

 

[EdSavoie]

Now I have some questions about safety:

Is it a standard practice?

While the above posts have probably solved the mystery in this case, this is getting into the realm of safe rigging theory.

So, short answer, no. It absolutely should not be used for this purpose.

Which is to say, there are people in this industry who do try things like this, who absolutely should know better. (I'm not saying the fine folk in Philly are doing this, I'm commenting on people *I have watched* use tieline for this purpose.)

Long answer,
No, and everything you use for lifting should have a WLL certified for what you are trying to use it for. To this effect, it's also important to know the history of the equipment you're working with.

Even operating on the assumption of "Oh, tieline is supposed to be able to hold X, if it's good enough for drapery, it's good enough for this" is not a good plan. Grabbing a random roll of tieline you have lying around for general use, and using it for lifting can get ugly.

Is *this* tieline rated the same as others?
How old is it?
Has it been stored somewhere inappropriate? (Hot / cold / damp)
Has it been overstressed before, perhaps by someone else doing this?
Has it gotten soaked in something?
Has it spent time in the sun or another UV source?

There are anecdotes of people buying used rope, and having it fail under *fractions* of it's original rated capacity due to any or several of the above.

For the purposes of lowering fixtures, a rated climbing rope - of sufficient capacity of course - in good condition, should be fine.

It goes without saying, but don't stand anywhere near it until it's low enough to not pose a hazard. At least 5ft away for every 15ft up is a good rule of thumb.

 

[Michael K]

Even operating on the assumption of "Oh, tieline is supposed to be able to hold X, if it's good enough for drapery, it's good enough for this" is not a good plan. Grabbing a random roll of tieline you have lying around for general use, and using it for lifting can get ugly.

This reminds me of a RonHebbard story about main drapes and tieline and carpenters who think they know the ratings thereof: https://www.controlbooth.com/threads/strength-of-tieline.7832/page-2#post-389883


I'll further +1 quality rope, a rated pulley, shackle or carabiner, and a sling to anchor it all.