Moving Fixtures for a Theatre

Thanks for all the input,
A console is part of the equation. . They made a strange addition to the theatre about two years ago and purchased a emphasis server, so Moving lights is a bit doable, but still a pain. The emphasis was brought in to solve a problem and it created its own set of issues.
Chris

Curious as to what issues Emphasis created, as mine essentially does what I need it to do, though I agree that on-the-fly ML control is not something it does. Do you have a Net2 system ?, and if so, that would be a reason for wanting to stay with ETC.

I too am console shopping, and am currently intrigued by Congo, especially as there's been a lot of buzz on the stagecraft list about how fast RPN is to program. I am still waiting for the trickle down Eos to show it's face. I admit to being concerned about having to teach outside users RPN, as well needing a console that has the sub capacity of the Insight, so we'll see what develops.

SB
 
Curious as to what issues Emphasis created, as mine essentially does what I need it to do, though I agree that on-the-fly ML control is not something it does. Do you have a Net2 system ?, and if so, that would be a reason for wanting to stay with ETC.
I too am console shopping, and am currently intrigued by Congo, especially as there's been a lot of buzz on the stagecraft list about how fast RPN is to program. I am still waiting for the trickle down Eos to show it's face. I admit to being concerned about having to teach outside users RPN, as well needing a console that has the sub capacity of the Insight, so we'll see what develops.
SB

Interesting Steve. The first Congo demo I saw about a year ago, even though the rep assured us it was faster, everyone left shaking their head at having to learn RPN and why they just didn't leave things alone. My reaction was, "how hard can it be to change the order you type in?" It's interesting to hear that people are really seeing a speed increase now that they've had time to learn it.
 
gaff from what I understand RPN comes from the fact that they bought Congo from a company in Europe and wanted to get a new ML console out on the market. Apparently EOS is supposed to be closer to what all of us ETC programmers expect programing wise with the technology from the Congo.

I for one walked away complety frustrated with ETC when the Congo came out. After the abismal (sp?) Revolution and the Smartfade which harkens to Leprechaun boards, I was left wondering what ETC was thinking.
 
The whole ETC lineup is obviously in transition and it's a waiting game at this point.

Unlike Strand, which until Genlyte brought them out and now attempts to merge Marquee with Palette (or not), and who seemingly had a standard set of syntax/OS running from the 300 series up to the 500, ETC has always had a disconnect between Expression and Obsession, with completely different OS's. I believe that ETC is attempting to get "most" of their console line off the same OS as EOS and added the Congo line as a stop gap. Thus I have played a waiting game and have not jumped on the Congo bandwagon. Mostly as I really don't want to learn Avab syntax again ( I learned it once a long time ago and hated it), as well as I don't believe that Congo and Jr. fill in the console line the way that Obsession to Expression to Insight to Express went. Used to be, that as long as you didn't mind switching OS's from Obsession to Expression, you could find a console that met your requirements. That's not the case these days as there's no replacement yet for Insight, Nor for Express 72/144 & 48/86. At this point it's my guess that due to the age of a lot of Expression/Insight II's, as well as early generation Expresses, there's a lot of customers in the same boat I am, namely right on the edge of needing to make decisions with nothing I want out of ETC as yet.

SB
 
Steve for the win.

Remember one thing though...Obsession was created with Strand consoles in mind because at the time that was Broadway standard. The nice thing was there wasn't too much of syntax difference but enough of a one to be confusing at times.

Hopefully ETC will get its whole consonle situation sorted out.

How do you all feel about this (what seems like a) recent trend to consoles on PC?
 
EOS essentially uses the Obsession II syntax for programming. The new ION is supposed to be a scaled back version of the same OS as EOS, so that will probably close up the funky gap in the ETC console languages. Since Expression is going go out of production with the introduction of ION, I don't think anyone will have to worry about that programming style unless they are still working on the old consoles (which I wknow will take a while to phase out). Of course you still have to stand on your haed to program Congo, but I blame that on the Europeans...

In Strand the new Palette and Light Palette series in theory use the same basic syntax to the 300 and 500 series. I don't think that making that transition will be any harder than making the transition from Obsession II to Eos.
 
Congo is not at all a stop gap console. Congo/Eos is the same thing as Expression/Obsession.

One cosole is a Cue only desk by default, the other is a tracking desk by default.

Eos's syntax is really similar to Obsession, but not because the built it around that language, but because the market research showed that is what it wanted (it's another chicken/egg argument)
I have seen ION and it looks sexy. I have not worked with it yet, but will tomorrow and let people know more then.
 
Congo is not at all a stop gap console. Congo/Eos is the same thing as Expression/Obsession.
One cosole is a Cue only desk by default, the other is a tracking desk by default.
Eos's syntax is really similar to Obsession, but not because the built it around that language, but because the market research showed that is what it wanted (it's another chicken/egg argument)
I have seen ION and it looks sexy. I have not worked with it yet, but will tomorrow and let people know more then.

Congo/Eos isn't really the same as Expression/Obsession. Congo was designed to be an ML console, and it isn't really designed to be the console everyone puts in their high school or place of worship. Expression/Obsession is small scale venue vs. large scale venue, and the "we want to make a console that will be as popular as the Light Palette." From the outset, Congo was designed as a high end console.

I also think that the Obsession to Eos and having the same syntax is in response to people like Strand always keeping the same syntax on their consoles so that it was easy for a programmer to sit at any of the consoles and not have to re-learn how it works. When you think about the programming syntax on both Strand and Obsession/Eos consoles, it is very similar (funny thing about that), but also it is the way that designers speak: "Channel X at 50." (as opposed to Congo where you have to walk backwards to get the words to come out of your mouth in the correct order to program).

I look forward to hearing about Ion when you get to play with it.
 
Congo/Eos isn't really the same as Expression/Obsession. Congo was designed to be an ML console, and it isn't really designed to be the console everyone puts in their high school or place of worship. Expression/Obsession is small scale venue vs. large scale venue, and the "we want to make a console that will be as popular as the Light Palette." From the outset, Congo was designed as a high end console.
I also think that the Obsession to Eos and having the same syntax is in response to people like Strand always keeping the same syntax on their consoles so that it was easy for a programmer to sit at any of the consoles and not have to re-learn how it works. When you think about the programming syntax on both Strand and Obsession/Eos consoles, it is very similar (funny thing about that), but also it is the way that designers speak: "Channel X at 50." (as opposed to Congo where you have to walk backwards to get the words to come out of your mouth in the correct order to program).
I look forward to hearing about Ion when you get to play with it.


I would disagree with the statement that Congo was designed to be a high end console, in some respects. Is it a high end console, compared to the express/expression? Absolutely, but it is also very indicative of where the console market is going. More often than not, you are now controlling non-dimmer devices with consoles, and the next generation of desks needed to address that advance in a significant way. The idea with both lines of desk was that you would no longer have to have a desk for your conventionals, and another desk for your movers. It would be one desk that would control both well. It (especially the Jr.) was specifically designed to go into high schools and Houses of Worship. Again, it was designed to do both conventionals and movers well.

Yes there is some small scale vs. large scale venue aspect to the expression vs. obsession line. However, it really is more a function of how you want the desk to function, as well as other feature (I.e. do you need full tracking backup, etc) You can get an Expression with 1200 channels - that was a very significant amount in it's day - for the larger venues. I put forth that it was more of the fact that the larger and professional houses used designers that were used to a tracking desk vs a cue only desk and that drove a lot of the decisions about which system to choose.


I say that congo/eos is expression/obsession from the standpoint of cue only vs tracking. ETC has had a line of consoles that will do each, and they are going to continue to have a line that does each, that's all.

Is the RPN different? yes it is, but as I have said before, it takes about 15 minutes of actually using the desk to get over it. It's not like ETC pulled RPN out of thin air and decided to use it either. There is a line of consoles going back 20 some odd years that have been using this syntax. It really is easy to think about it in these terms -- You put in a number, and then you tell it what the number is. That's it.

I have said this before, i believe, and if I haven't, I will say it now. When the Congo first came out - i was very stand offish as well. I didn't like RPN and didn't really want to take the time to go through it and learn it. But I recently programmed a show on a jr and it was very easy. It just flows after the first little bit of programming on it.


After that show, i am excited about the desk and found it to be really rather easy. I actually have a harder time thinking about the two button press commands than I do the RPN. They are so simple, but because there was absolutely nothing like it on an expression line, it's not something I am quite used to just yet.

I am sure that I will post more about the ION after I get to play with it some tomorrow

Thanks for the discussion
 
Is the RPN different? yes it is, but as I have said before, it takes about 15 minutes of actually using the desk to get over it. It's not like ETC pulled RPN out of thin air and decided to use it either. There is a line of consoles going back 20 some odd years that have been using this syntax. It really is easy to think about it in these terms -- You put in a number, and then you tell it what the number is. That's it.

Meeeeeeh...Its not that they pulled it out of thin air, because you're right they didn't, its that its so radically different from every other console they had out at the point. People had a certain expectation when they sat down at an ETC console and Congo didn't really meet that from this standpoint.

Personally I like boards that program like I talk. I think in terms of putting Channel 20 at 50%, Not 50% channel 20 or however it is you have to do it on Congo (For the record its been a while and I don't quite remember the button strokes).
 
I skimmed some of the answers, and didn't see this:

First, what are people asking for? If they have any idea what they're doing, they'll have an idea of what brand/wattage/types of fixtures they want. Same with console.

Also, are there any production houses near you? If so, what I would do is contact them and make a deal. Get a rate from them, then their inventory becomes your inventory. Naturally, I would line up a bunch of them so that if one were out you could still get stuff. About 70% of the lighting I use is rented. Fortunately, there's about 6 - 8 rental houses near me, so I don't have issues with getting stuff. I know what it will cost me to rent, and I just pass that on to my customers, plus a fee for my time to pick it up and return it, plus truck rental, etc. The other 30% was determined by my ability to sell a certain product so often that it made sense to buy instead of renting.

As for consoles, better leave it up to the visiting people. Some people are versed in a lot of different ones, but most are not. If you're a Hog guy, you may not know Avo or MA very well. Even if they are versatile, they may not have the time to re-do the whole show for every different console.

Obviously, if you don't have adequate resources, renting is out. Personally, I'd make a decision to go with a mix of about 40/60 wash to profile, and change that up depending on the types of shows you're doing.
 
Hello-

Something that I don't think I have seen in this topics yet is the consideration for sound. You will want to pick a unit that can multi task and give you as much flexibility as you want while being as quiet as it can be. VL's are the best for sound as are some of the newer S4 Revolutions. You will also want to consider how to go about fixing them. In order to take apart a VL without voiding the warranty you need to be certified by VL in the field. But for something that is more outfitted to do more event styles you may still want to go with a VL.
Also if you are looking into anything with the EOS make sure you have the adapter box to go from CAT5 to DMX. There are no DMX outputs on the EOS board because it is a "next gen" board.
Hoped that helps. Also hope I wasn't repeating anyone else.


-J.
 
Hello-
Something that I don't think I have seen in this topics yet is the consideration for sound. You will want to pick a unit that can multi task and give you as much flexibility as you want while being as quiet as it can be. VL's are the best for sound as are some of the newer S4 Revolutions. You will also want to consider how to go about fixing them. In order to take apart a VL without voiding the warranty you need to be certified by VL in the field. But for something that is more outfitted to do more event styles you may still want to go with a VL.
Also if you are looking into anything with the EOS make sure you have the adapter box to go from CAT5 to DMX. There are no DMX outputs on the EOS board because it is a "next gen" board.
Hoped that helps. Also hope I wasn't repeating anyone else.
-J.

From Martin the MAC 700 and TW1 are pretty quiet as well.

The lack of DMX outputs is going to be common soon as everything starts converting to an ethernet system. I believe Strand is going all ethernet out on all their new consoles. Fortunately there is a fairly simple and reasonably priced solution for converting back and forth called a DMX/Ethernet node. The node will allow the EOS to talk DMX to whatever piece of equipment needs DMX. It also works in reverse so you can use a Congo Jr. DMX out into a Strand node and control your strand dimmers over Ethernet.

It's going to be a little weird out there until the industry settles in with ACN and RDM (or gives up and just stays with DMX).
 
Hello-
Something that I don't think I have seen in this topics yet is the consideration for sound. You will want to pick a unit that can multi task and give you as much flexibility as you want while being as quiet as it can be. VL's are the best for sound as are some of the newer S4 Revolutions. You will also want to consider how to go about fixing them. In order to take apart a VL without voiding the warranty you need to be certified by VL in the field. But for something that is more outfitted to do more event styles you may still want to go with a VL.
Also if you are looking into anything with the EOS make sure you have the adapter box to go from CAT5 to DMX. There are no DMX outputs on the EOS board because it is a "next gen" board.
Hoped that helps. Also hope I wasn't repeating anyone else.
-J.

EOS ships with a DMX node, there is almost no one out there who doesn't need it if they are upgrading. Plus, if you are going to sped $40K and up you ought to be able to use the console!
 

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