Moving Head Fixtures

[DELO72]

I don't like them for theatre.

A good point was made in their value in saving focus time when you have a dance floor in place, but aside from that I can't see a need for them 90% of the time for straight theatre. Please tell me how Tennessee Williams benefits from moving lights? It doesn't. Are there big, sensational musicals where they would have a purpose? Absolutely. The Lion King, Les Miserables, Chess, Starlight Express-- I get it. The Mousetrap? Nope. Picnic? Nope. The Cherry Orchard? Nope. And as Ann Millitello said, neither did Sam Sheppard's plays. Designing lights isn't about the lights. It's about the production and the script and the lighting needs to support that, not overpower and upstage it and call attention to itself. So for me the best lighting is that which isn't noticed by the audience, and moving lights tend to be noticed for both their movement and their fan noise and motors. Do multiple Gobos and colors have a use- absolutely. Now, Dance is different as the light combines with the dance to create the environment, but if the light pulls your attention away from the dancers, you failed, because at the end of they day it's about the dancers, not the lighting.

And hey- you don't need to agree with me. Everyone has their own favorite tool and opinion. This is just my personal take on lighting and its use in theatre. But again, I'm an old school purist. I think every young designer should be taught on a 2 scene preset board to develop their art and understand the value of a cross fade, delayed fade, and the timing required in following an actor across the stage who won't travel with the same speed or the exact same route each night, then take that knowledge to a computer board later on where it becomes a # and not a feeling.

 

[derekleffew]

Sorry for the hi-jack...

... But again, I'm an old school purist. I think every young designer should be taught on a 2 scene preset board to develop their art and understand the value of a cross fade, delayed fade, and the timing required in following an actor across the stage who won't travel with the same speed or the exact same route each night, then take that knowledge to a computer board later on where it becomes a # and not a feeling.

Mark, with all due respect and as the Resident Curmudgeon™, you're not that much of an old-school purist, or you would be advocating teaching on a resistance or autotransformer board--one where each and every channel could have its own independent fade time (number of hands permitting), much like the Hogs and MAs today. And which incidentally led to the concept of tracking desks, rather than "state" or "preset" boards.
-----

... Please tell me how Tennessee Williams benefits from moving lights? It doesn't.

I can't be certain*, but dollars to donuts Natasha Katz used moving lights on the recent Glass Menagerie revival. And I would bet used them effectively and appropriately. She won a Tony Award for it.

@icewolf08, your (legit) theatre owns Elation PowerSpots and Revolutions. How often do designers use your mover lights for non-musicals? When I saw your A Chorus Line, you used three I think, but I wouldn't have known that had you not told me after. I never saw them move.

... Now, Dance is different as the light combines with the dance to create the environment, but if the light pulls your attention away from the dancers, you failed, because at the end of they day it's about the dancers, not the lighting. ...

As today seems to be "pick on Mark day", I have a good friend who gets a lot of work (mainly in high schools) particularly because he's a very "flashy" designer and the choreographers want him to detract from the dancers, because they're usually so bad. This is the same designer who practically had a fit when I made him mask the stage so he couldn't see the fixtures and not use haze, as that forces a designer to concentrate on what the light is lighting, as opposed to what the beam looks like. I'd love to throw him on an autotransformer board.

*EDIT: From http://livedesignonline.com/theatre...katz-sets-and-lighting-glass-menagerie?page=3 :

NK: We have seven moving lights on the show. ART happened to have moving lights there from past productions so I used them. They ended up being very helpful to light the fire escape and little moments that I couldn’t get to with other lights. They were Martin MAC Viper Profiles. We also have four Martin TW1s on the show.

I feel, and felt at the time, that the play really deserved to be lit with incandescent lighting—nothing that feels like it is from today, especially because there are so many layers of memory and time. All of that is dealt with by different kinds of light—different color, different angles. It felt like it shouldn’t have any kind of modern lighting fixtures in it.

Article is unclear about that the second paragraph seemingly contradicts the first. I suspect the Vipers were color-corrected to make them look and feel incandescent. The TW1s already are incandescent sources (probably).

 

[de27192]

The point is that movers in many theatrical scenarios are not chosen for being movers. They're simply chosen as conventionals which can fulfil numerous roles in the same show.

They are a practical feature for most theatres, not a creative one. I work in a receiving house that sometimes takes 3 shows a week. The time and effort we can save by putting in one mover, on one channel of hot power and a daisy-chained DMX; compared to the 5 or 6 conventionals that it can do the same job as; is immeasurable. We'd need 5 or 6 fixtures, 5 or 6 channels of dim power, and 5 or 6 things to go up to and focus. Multiply that across 25 movers and we are talking significant amounts of cabling, gel cutting, focus time, etc etc. Simply not practical.

And actually, I whole-heartedly disagree with your point

Designing lights isn't about the lights. It's about the production and the script and the lighting needs to support that, not overpower and upstage it and call attention to itself

That's wrong. Designing lights is about doing what the creatives want it to do. If the creatives want the light to be an active, in-it's-own-right part of the performance, then it can be. There's no rule that it can't. And as the possibilities for lights increase, so do the possibilities for how they can be used to broaden the technical involvement in the show. There are no rules with theatre lighting, you can do what you like with it. A lot of LDs do still believe that you're not there to be a feature but the fact is, there's no reason you can't be, if that's what the show's creatives want. And so, if that's what you're going for, movers certainly can offer things that convetionals can't. Remember, movers don't just move. Movers are automated fixtures where everything can be adjusted live, and be recalled at the call of a cue. There is an unarguable value in that.

 

[sk8rsdad]

I've tried to stay away from this thread, mostly because it feels like we keep flogging a dead horse and continually debating the merits of movers instead of responding to the OP's question. The OP runs what I assume is a mixed use facility. Consequently, there are probably times when some moving lights are a nice tool to have in the toolbox.

I run a 350 seat venue that does straight theatre, musicals, and some rentals, mostly to dance schools. We have a decent inventory of conventional fixtures, accessories, and LED wash fixtures. We also have 8 Clay Paky Alpha Spot 300 HPEs. They get used for texturing, movable specials, fill lights, and cheesy effects when necessary. They get used well by some designers, and poorly by others, and for about half the shows they don't get used at all. They blend well with our conventionals and LEDs. They are virtually silent most of the time, certainly quieter than the fans on our scrollers, except when rapidly panning or zooming. The noisiest thing in the theatre are the scrollers when they are changing colour. They are very versatile but do have some limitations mostly with intensity.

The other reasonably quiet light I have used is the MAC Entour in Studio mode. They are much more limited in their feature set so I wouldn't recommend them as a general purpose moving light for a facility that does mostly straight theatre. If somebody were to give me a dozen Clay Paky Alpha Spot 800 SWO's with framing shutters I would be ecstatic but I could never justify buying them. For the same money I could buy 6 or 8 dozen Source Four LED IIs instead, not that I could use more than 2 dozen.

We decided to purchase because of the lack of an option to rent. Our rental shops cater either to the DJ/bar band market or large festivals so their selection is not appropriate for our small theatre. If we were located in a city with a well-stocked rental shop we would probably still own a couple of movers, mostly for training and corporate rentals. The selection would be biased by what the rental shops stocked so we could supplement as needed.

 

[DuckJordan]

Coming from a theater that is a completely dependent on outside rental and bringing in other shows I can tell you our movers get almost 0 use outside of your symphony shows. Unless its a concert they don't get used. I can count on 1 hand how many times they've been used in the last year. These are 12 mac vipers (could be more i just know we have at least 12). So just be aware the thought of using them on shows that come in is almost null. If a show wants a mover they'll bring their own.

 

[icewolf08]

I don't like them for theatre.

A good point was made in their value in saving focus time when you have a dance floor in place, but aside from that I can't see a need for them 90% of the time for straight theatre. Please tell me how Tennessee Williams benefits from moving lights? It doesn't. Are there big, sensational musicals where they would have a purpose? Absolutely. The Lion King, Les Miserables, Chess, Starlight Express-- I get it. The Mousetrap? Nope. Picnic? Nope. The Cherry Orchard? Nope. And as Ann Millitello said, neither did Sam Sheppard's plays. Designing lights isn't about the lights. It's about the production and the script and the lighting needs to support that, not overpower and upstage it and call attention to itself. So for me the best lighting is that which isn't noticed by the audience, and moving lights tend to be noticed for both their movement and their fan noise and motors. Do multiple Gobos and colors have a use- absolutely. Now, Dance is different as the light combines with the dance to create the environment, but if the light pulls your attention away from the dancers, you failed, because at the end of they day it's about the dancers, not the lighting.

I very much beg to differ. The show doesn't care or dictate what lights are used to light a show. What difference does it make what type of fixture is putting light onto the stage as long as the light coming out of the fixture serves the show?

As @derekleffew mentioned, I work for the largest regional theatre in my state. We own a handful of various moving lights and other devices like icues and color scrollers. We have plenty of designers come through and use moving lights on all kinds of shows. I had moving lights in Of Mice and Men, A Few Good Men, Much Ado, One Man Two Guvnors, and many many more plays. We use them all the time in musicals as well. They don't detract or distract from the show as long as they are used efficiently. I can think of plenty of reasons why having moving lights my be helpful in a straight play, and I can think of reasons why they would be helpful in classic plays as well. Just because they didn't exist when Tennessee Williams was producing his plays the first time doesn't mean that new technology couldn't serve the play.

A show benefits from good lighting design. It doesn't matter what tools you use to accomplish the end product as long as that product serves the vision for the show. Sure, if you use equipment just because you have it and thus don't make good use of it, that could be an issue, but a good designer can integrate all the technology available to create seamless, beautiful work.

 

[de27192]

If a show wants a mover they'll bring their own.

Shows - yes.

Corporates / Events - less so. If you can do it in house, they will often go for that. But you'll need more than 4.

Hence it really depends what you're envisaging doing. As one of the first posts said - buy the kit to meet your requirements; don't tailor your requirements to fit your spec.

 

[icewolf08]

HI

We have a small-ish 400 seat theatre space. I want to purchase and install 4 moving head lighting instruments.

My main concern is noise output of the luminaries.

Distance from hang position to audience level- 26 feet.

So my question- What are the highest quality, lowest noise output moving head lighting instruments out there?

I rented a couple of Martin 800s last year and found them to be far too noisy.

Usage needs- from a straight play with quiet intimate scenes to musicals.
General wash and pattern play. I won't make my own gobos but would purchase as needed.

Can or do LEDs in a moving head provide that natural feel that traditional tungsten-halogen lamps do? To LED or not to LED.

Any input is appreciated.

Chad

Going back to the OP for a minute....

For your needs, I would consider the ETC Source 4 Revolution (I can't believe I said that) or something in the VL1K line. I would go with a tungsten fixture as they are easier to blend with the rest of your rig, plus they are usually somewhat simpler to manage and require less expensive lamps than discharge fixtures.

 

[de27192]

For your needs, I would consider the ETC Source 4 Revolution (I can't believe I said that) or something in the VL1K line. I would go with a tungsten fixture as they are easier to blend with the rest of your rig, plus they are usually somewhat simpler to manage and require less expensive lamps than discharge fixtures.

Completely agree with the recommendations - I can't believe you said it either. You must enjoy time in the workshop... Although interestingly, we have VL1100 AS (Discharge) and VL1100 TS (Tungsten) and despite the situation you describe (fitting better with a conventionals rig) I would say the discharge ones are requested more by designers than the Tungsten ones. Just an observation.

Remember unlike many movers, you can fit a gel to VL1K / 1100 so you can colour correct from one to the other if need be. Irritatingly they don't have a built in CTO/CTB filter available as many other movers do.

The VLs are by far my favourite for moving head profiles. As a 3rd option, Clay Paky's offerings are very strong too. Probably better, IMO, than the S4Revolution

 

[DuckJordan]

Personally I can't stand the ETC revos, every single tour that has come in (3 or 4th stop for the fixture) I've seen at least 2 hours troubleshooting at least 2-3 fixtures in the rig. To me it was one of the worst products ETC has made. Yeah its nice that you can use the same lamp as whats in your source fours but to be honest its not strong enough of a fixture to hold up to little to no maintenance (what you'll find in a low budget high school) or the rigors of the road.

Now it would be a great opportunity for teaching maintenance on the fixtures (if done by a competent individual) but I would strongly recommend against the S4 revos...

 

[JChenault]

Personally I can't stand the ETC revos, every single tour that has come in (3 or 4th stop for the fixture) I've seen at least 2 hours troubleshooting at least 2-3 fixtures in the rig. To me it was one of the worst products ETC has made. Yeah its nice that you can use the same lamp as whats in your source fours but to be honest its not strong enough of a fixture to hold up to little to no maintenance (what you'll find in a low budget high school) or the rigors of the road.

Now it would be a great opportunity for teaching maintenance on the fixtures (if done by a competent individual) but I would strongly recommend against the S4 revos...

Re the revolutions

They do not use the same lamp as a S4. They use a fast-fit 70 volt lamp.

Could be your maintenance issue was with touring. When we got our first two units, they were dead out of the box. Once fixed and in the air, we have had only one major repair in six years or so.

Ie if you are going to put it up in the air and leave it there, I expect your maintenance will not be too bad. YMMV

All that said the pre-wybron scrollers ( which we have ) do have issues with accurately finding their color.

 

[DuckJordan]

My mistake on the lamp, however 2-4 moves should not kill a fixture. Nor should Amy manufacture expect a unit to stay in the same spot. I'm sorry but for the money there are better products. Etc makes a great ellipsoidal but movers have not been kind to them.

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