Control/Dimming Paradigm no House Light control via Ion XE + Ramble about crappy install

[Thelightsguy]

Hey all,

Got quite an interesting system here,

I know this post is long but its got some context for the issue at hand,

So my former middle school just did a whole upgrade from ancient Strand Century to all new ETC stuff, Echo Relay Panels, Paradigm, Colorsource Vs, Pars, etc

The theatre director who knows absolutely nothing about lighting asked me to come in and focus things, I'm like great I can do that. So I showed up today turned the console on and there was no show file whatsoever, I lost my marbles.

The company that came in and did the installation did not make a show file, and didn't provide a list of what fixtures are addressed where or any docs whatsoever. So instead of focusing, I spent 2 hours gathering addresses of fixtures and patching them in. Every single fixture had an address so it baffles me that a show file was not created, especially for a fresh clean install.

Now here's the curve ball:

60 Fixtures + 42 house light channels - over 11 universes

This system could have literally been condensed down to 3 universes at most but haha no. Every separate hang position has its own universe for some reason, for example in the ceiling is the front of house lights there are two sides, one side is Uni 1 and the other is Uni 2. It could all be on Universe 1 but for some reason, it's not.

What also doesn't make sense to me is, that there is a nomad puck, right next to the console. One display is for the console and one is for the puck. Seems like a waste of money, the puck+console is a lil overkill. I also dug around in some boxes and found a brand new freshly sealed gadget and nomad key! I don't know why they needed all of this! The console is more than perfect.

Okay so anyway here is my issue,

The house lights are on Universe 10 with like 4 channels on Uni 11, I went to the Paradigm to get the channels since we didn't have a list of what did what. I patched like 2 channels into the board and got nothing out of it. I can get stuff to turn on from the touchscreens on the wall but can't get control via the board. Not exactly sure why, I would assume the console would talk to everything because the Paradigm talks to everything, (There is one preset that turns every stage and house light on to full). Is there something I can check in the Paradigm or console that might explain why I can't get control from the console?

Any help would be appreciated!

 

[CraigV]

New venues are always a pleasure to have, with a bunch of things to figure out.

The Nomad could be useful if there's ever an LD trying to design from the middle of the house while a programmer inputs commands. I could see the installers leaving that near the board since it's unlikely it could live in the middle of the house. And having the extra universe space can really help with keeping the show file organized.

Onto your issue—is it all networked? If there's DMX lines out of the board, I would suggest double checking how they are configured. Alternatively, if it's networked you may need to make sure the console is outputting on the right interface.

Doesn't Paradigm have a key lockout to switch control from the wall to the console? I've not worked too closely with Paradigm in a while, but perhaps Paradigm has a setting regarding what fixtures the console can take control over, and they didn't set it right for Universe 11?

 

[Crisp image]

Hi Thelightsguy,
Welcome to the real world where installers do what they want and not what is logical to you or I.
So now comes the fun part. Work out where all the infrastructure is (cables, nodes and associated gear) then work out how to use it to the best it can be. Draw out a plan. Is the hang where you want it? does it need to be modified?
I would have started with a fixture list and then made my own patch and numbering schema (or do it in consultation with others) and then readdress all the fixtures. Even if it is over 11U where it fits in 3U, what does it matter once you are patched and using channel numbers? My best advice is to document document document and share that document with whoever needs it.
If the fixtures were already addressed then ask yourself what controlled them? or why were they addressed in that way. As for a puc or nomad, I work one venue where the puc is side stage and used for patching or fault finding on the fly instead of going to the control room to the console. Yes I can use an iPad or similar but I have a full software package next to the stage that is logged in as a client and a different user number. It is really handy when we have visiting LD who we need to make changes in the background while they continue to work uninterrupted. Things like fixing a patch changing dimmer outlets or adding relay channels into macros and parking them at full.
As for paradigm, I have no clue but maybe it is time to do a little research and phone a friend, look at online resources and training notes to get an understanding of how it works.
This is how you become a great problem solver. Knowledge is power in this field and sharing it is also important. Don't expect everything to be handed to you on a plate.
I probably have not been any help at all but if I have then good.

Regards
Geoff

 

[cbrandt]

Is there any reason that you, or the venue representative can't reach out to the installer? I can't count the number of times that a clean install had a nice clean show file, and someone helpfully came along after the fact and cleared the board including backups. That same helpful person rarely is knowledgeable enough to realize that the base showfile isn't somewhere else. There's also a good chance they left that same showfile sitting on a backup thumbdrive that someone forgot where it was.

Could also be very informative about the philosophy of how/why it was patched and configured that way.

 

[LukeDelwiche]

All sound advice above! Keep in min that Ion Xe counts its capacity in used parameters, not universes. So - it doesn't really matter if the ~3 universes worth of addresses are spread across 11 sACN universes. It can be an advantage, as you can quickly know what free addresses you have in a given area if you want to add/move lights. It can generally mean less need to reconfigure DMX Gateways.

The Eos software allows you to nominate a "base" showfile to use in lieu of a blank one. This is a perfect use case for that - set up a base file with the patch, maybe some colors and positions, and then use that for each new show.

Paradigm is an extraordinarily flexible system - so it's all in the programming. It can be set up to have exclusive control of house lights, for example, or to have a button to share them, or to give them up to the console. The installer will know!

Luke

 

[Thelightsguy]

I'm just gonna reply in one post to keep things simple,

@LukeDelwiche
I've set up a base show file, I'm going to take a deeper look into the paradigm, I asked the director to figure out which company did the install (It's one of the 3 that service the Chicago area and I think I have a pretty good idea who did it) Once I get that answer I'm gonna give them a call and ask if they have a show file/fixture list.

@cbrandt
The reason I can't reach out is the director doesn't know who did the installation, I will hopefully get a clear answer soon. I'll go looking through boxes and things today and try to find a USB drive or any documentation.

@CraigV
Everything is networked, there are pathport gateways everywhere. I'll pull up sACN View on the console when I'm back there today and see what it sees. I didn't see any obvious override switch that would allow console control of everything.

@Crisp image
Your help was great, I do plan on documenting everything because the people here don't have a clue what they are doing, I've been running the tech stuff here for about 6 years and I'll be off to college after this year so they won't have me around. Might be local for a year or two but who knows where I'll go. I'll see how far I get today, hopefully, I get further. I'm praying we find out who did the installation so I can get some more insight.

This is going to be fresh install 1 of 2 this week, On Friday I gotta hang 69 new fixtures for my high school (CSSpotVs, CSFresnelVs, Altman Spectra Cyc 200s) address them all, and patch em in. Were doing the hang and fixture setup ourselves. So I'll be sure to make it simple and document it all.


Thank you all for your help so far!

 

[TimMc]

It's in a school. The purchasing department will know who the contract was with.

 

[Mac Hosehead]

I can't count the number of times that a clean install had a nice clean show file, and someone helpfully came along after the fact and cleared the board including backups.

I wonder if something like this happened since systems of this size would be commissioned with training included. Also, ETC should know who installed this and what is likely going on with Paradigm.

 

[Van]

Hey all,

Got quite an interesting system here,

I know this post is long but its got some context for the issue at hand,

So my former middle school just did a whole upgrade from ancient Strand Century to all new ETC stuff, Echo Relay Panels, Paradigm, Colorsource Vs, Pars, etc

The theatre director who knows absolutely nothing about lighting asked me to come in and focus things, I'm like great I can do that. So I showed up today turned the console on and there was no show file whatsoever, I lost my marbles.

The company that came in and did the installation did not make a show file, and didn't provide a list of what fixtures are addressed where or any docs whatsoever. So instead of focusing, I spent 2 hours gathering addresses of fixtures and patching them in. Every single fixture had an address so it baffles me that a show file was not created, especially for a fresh clean install.

Now here's the curve ball:

60 Fixtures + 42 house light channels - over 11 universes

This system could have literally been condensed down to 3 universes at most but haha no. Every separate hang position has its own universe for some reason, for example in the ceiling is the front of house lights there are two sides, one side is Uni 1 and the other is Uni 2. It could all be on Universe 1 but for some reason, it's not.

What also doesn't make sense to me is, that there is a nomad puck, right next to the console. One display is for the console and one is for the puck. Seems like a waste of money, the puck+console is a lil overkill. I also dug around in some boxes and found a brand new freshly sealed gadget and nomad key! I don't know why they needed all of this! The console is more than perfect.

Okay so anyway here is my issue,

The house lights are on Universe 10 with like 4 channels on Uni 11, I went to the Paradigm to get the channels since we didn't have a list of what did what. I patched like 2 channels into the board and got nothing out of it. I can get stuff to turn on from the touchscreens on the wall but can't get control via the board. Not exactly sure why, I would assume the console would talk to everything because the Paradigm talks to everything, (There is one preset that turns every stage and house light on to full). Is there something I can check in the Paradigm or console that might explain why I can't get control from the console?

Any help would be appreciated!

Double Check with the District person that was in charge of Liaison with the General Contractor, there has to have been SOMEONE with the school district that was the district rep for the project. . The Installer would have to had turned over an O&M Manual (Operations and Maintenance) that package should include a light plot, which would have been generated from the Installers notes as well as the complete system drawings and mapping. The ETC commissioning Technician Completes a form outlining the patch and addressing and it should be included in the O&M Manual which will include a complete O&M manual from ETC. The Problem is often time the District Rep doesn't pass on the Theatrical O&M's, "Why should I ? I sent them to the Maintenance guys..." I can't tell you the number of times I've received panicked emails from Theatre Teachers asking for drawings, and O&M manuals.

 

[Thelightsguy]

Double Check with the District person that was in charge of Liaison with the General Contractor, there has to have been SOMEONE with the school district that was the district rep for the project. . The Installer would have to had turned over an O&M Manual (Operations and Maintenance) that package should include a light plot, which would have been generated from the Installers notes as well as the complete system drawings and mapping. The ETC commissioning Technician Completes a form outlining the patch and addressing and it should be included in the O&M Manual which will include a complete O&M manual from ETC. The Problem is often time the District Rep doesn't pass on the Theatrical O&M's, "Why should I ? I sent them to the Maintenance guys..." I can't tell you the number of times I've received panicked emails from Theatre Teachers asking for drawings, and O&M manuals.

The district people are quite possibly the most unhelpful people around. I can try to ask but I might come up empty. If I emailed ETC tech support do you think they could give me the documents and help me out with the paradigm issue? Ill look further today to see if theres any trace of the install company.

 

[JimmyM]

If you go to the Paradigm processor you should be able to navigate to an "About" screen which should give information about the installer, and an ETC project number. Assuming the installer sent the files to ETC they should be able to provide documentation, and in the least case contact info for the dealer who installed it.

Also keep in mind that depending on how things were sold the lighting installer may have been a sub of the electricians, and that can make things confusing as there is no direct link between the end user and installer.

Often places will use a universe per pipe, that way addressing is easy to keep track of, as you know the first fixture on any given pipe is address 1 the second address 7, ect.

 

[Thelightsguy]

If you go to the Paradigm processor you should be able to navigate to an "About" screen which should give information about the installer, and an ETC project number. Assuming the installer sent the files to ETC they should be able to provide documentation, and in the least case contact info for the dealer who installed it.

Also keep in mind that depending on how things were sold the lighting installer may have been a sub of the electricians, and that can make things confusing as there is no direct link between the end user and installer.

Often places will use a universe per pipe, that way addressing is easy to keep track of, as you know the first fixture on any given pipe is address 1 the second address 7, ect.

I think it mainly was electricians, I actually almost looked at the project information on the paradigm but then got sidetracked. Ill look today, in the meantime ill contact ETC.

 

[Mac Hosehead]

I would just call ETC and ask for tech service. They are good at coming up with solutions over the phone.

 

[Thelightsguy]

I just shot over an email, ill report back what they tell me!

 

[CraigV]

Yep, ETC should have a copy of the install documentation too to know exactly what you have in your system.

 

[NickVon]

Your average electrician, isn't allowed to setup Paradigm, requires specialized software.
Most have already commented with the Bullet points of next steps. But I'll 2 cents some stuff as well.

I've been 2 years at fairly newly renovated high school space, that sound very similar to yours. We still mostly have conventional, with 20 some LED pars, and 10 LED Lekos. I also at first thought the universe per position was weird, coming from a venue that had just 2. one that the dimmer rack sat on, and the 2nd that we used for everything else, (movers, IQ's scrollers, LED's etc.) It might not be as convenient to move things between pipes, But my rep plot "addressed" lights start at one, and count up, and any no rep plot stuff I want to add to an electric or FOH, starts at 150. Once you're familiar with the space I think you'll grow to appreciate this method of organization like I have.

your Touch Panel should have a "JOB ID" assigned by ETC somewhere on a screen. Call them up and ask them who your installer was for at least the paradigm portion. Even if random electricians or school personal handled the stage lighting setup.

I would not adjust the currently hung LED inventory's address. Especially if they are in any way controlled by the Paradigm system for work lights/podium presets or the like. Unless the installer setup a way to record new preset into your touch panel controls.

In our touch panel we have to login to it, and transfer LX control to the console from the paradigm architectural stuff. I'm near certain there is a touch panel button, a physical switch or something for you system as well.

All our houselights are individually addressed, which coming from such a sparse system from my previous job where all the house lights where controlled by 4 dimmers felt like a waste and extravagance. BUT having individual control over our 48 house lights has allowed for some super fun stuff when we did "Puffs"!

 

[Thelightsguy]

Alright, I got updates, The school's tech department must have deleted the file off the console, how and why I don't know. But we got it back tech support got in contact with the installer and got the file. We resolved the house light issue, There's a button on the screen that pops up after you unlock the touch screen, that says house relays and that allowed us to grab house light control. Having every single house light on an individual channel is going to be super awesome!

Got all the kinks worked out and I am making a magic sheet for the school now.

Thanks for all your help everyone, I have to do this all over again on Friday as my high school just got new stuff and we gotta hang it all then!

 

[NickVon]

Alright, I got updates, The school's tech department must have deleted the file off the console, how and why I don't know. But we got it back tech support got in contact with the installer and got the file. We resolved the house light issue, There's a button on the screen that pops up after you unlock the touch screen, that says house relays and that allowed us to grab house light control. Having every single house light on an individual channel is going to be super awesome!

Got all the kinks worked out and I am making a magic sheet for the school now.

Thanks for all your help everyone, I have to do this all over again on Friday as my high school just got new stuff and we gotta hang it all then!

Huzzah!

 

[NickVon]

also. you have a fire alarm bypass/reset through Paradigm....... Neat

 

[almorton]

Having every single house light on an individual channel is going to be super awesome!

That has been so useful for us in our theatre - often it has meant we can avoid having to hang specials for entrances via the auditorium or when the cast break the fourth wall and leave the stage.