Performance Room, Emergency Fluorescent Lights

[CanYouHearMeNow]

So, we have a situation where we are moving to a temporary (3 years) location in a small venue that will have a small stage (16' wide x 8' deep with a 4' apron). The stage will take slightly less than 1/5 of the room. During the day, it is a large TV lounge and gathering space. There will also be small comedy acts and acoustic bands, etc, coming through. The lights are wired to switches, but when we turn all the switches off, 3 of the lights remain on. These are the emergency lighting.

My questions are...
1) why will these lights not turn off (is it a code reason, etc)
2) Is there a way that we can modify them so that they can be off during performances when we would have other lighting on, in the space already?
3) Is there a code violation for putting gels in the lights? (other than if the power does go out that they need to be able to be lit for 90 minutes at a certain lumen output, etc......)

Anyone experience anything like this?
Any solutions?

Thanks!

 

[robartsd]

Personally I think that the code should make emergency lighting that cannot be controled under non-emergency situations illegal to avoid tempting people in your situation from circumventing the emergency purpose of the lights.

The correct solution would be to change the emergency lights so that they are under your control unless there is a power failure. The simplest emergency lighting has constant power and a battery - the lights are always on until the power fails and the battery runs out. This is most likely what you have. Some controlable emergency lights have constant power and switched power, others have constant power and a low voltage control. The constant power keeps the battery charged and the light automatically switches on if the constant power fails. In either case, additional wiring will be required in order to gain control without circumventy the emergency purpose of the lights.

 

[Catwalker]

If I'm interpreting what you're saying correctly, these lights are wired to stay on for the night, rather than be switched off. We have fixtures at our venue with the same wiring. We cover one or two with gel for shows, and the fire inspector didn't say anything, but then again, we're in a rather different area than you. We just twist the bulbs out of some for shows only, and when we hold dance style events in the foyer that require complete darkness, except for the rig we set up, the night lights get turned off at the breaker. I'm not sure what code says about this, and I'm in Canada, so I probably wouldn't be of much help on the code front.

I think the original poster is referring to night lights, which are regular fixtures wired to stay on all of the time, rather than emergency lights, which are wired to battery-powered boxes that charge, and stay off while connected to AC power, but turn on when the power goes out. (Like in a storm, or fire, or breaker flip)

All of the above is purely based on my interpretation of the original post. Correct me if my assumption was wrong, OP.

 

[BillConnerFASTC]

Something should be changed and hard to know what's most economical without knowing details. Sometime night lights are internally batter powered and sometimes powered by some other power supply and just not switched. Somehow, you need to be able to switch them off but know theyed be on in the event of a power failure.

 

[venuetech]

this is from another forum dated 2010

I spoke with my lighting designer, and discovered that I had been thinking about things backwards. It is not a matter of a rule that requires a certain minimum number of lights, or a certain minimum footcandles, be turned on at all times. Instead, he explained it to me in this way:

• There is a rule that requires the exit pathways to be illuminated, in the event that normal utility power is lost (i.e., “egress lighting,” which is required to be powered by the “emergency distribution system”).
• There used to be a rule that these lights could not be switched.
• However, they have relaxed that rule, and allowed the egress lights to be controlled by on/off switches, so long as they would all come on, if normal utility power is lost. This was an energy conservation measure.
• We have made the design decision to leave some of the egress lights on at all times, for the benefit of night workers or security personnel, and to switch the others.
• In the near future, a change to the state energy code (WA) will require that all lights, including the egress lights, be “swept off” by the control system, when there is nobody working in the area (i.e., based on occupancy sensors). Here again, if utility power is lost, the egress lights will be turned on within ten seconds. When that code takes effect, we will no longer be able to leave any lights on 24/7/365.

http://forums.mikeholt.com/showthread.php?t=127776

so based on this post, the always on is a "design decision to leave some of the egress lights on at all times"
so you could (with approval of your AHJ) switch those fixtures as long as you provide "the exit pathways to be illuminated, in the event that normal utility power is lost". that could be done with standalone emergency lighting fixtures.
click the underlined to get a wiki
see also https://www.etcconnect.com/uploaded...erstanding-Emergency-Lighting-2010-update.pdf

 

[BillConnerFASTC]

this is from another forum dated 2010
http://forums.mikeholt.com/showthread.php?t=127776

so based on this post, the always on is a "design decision to leave some of the egress lights on at all times"
so you could (with approval of your AHJ) switch those fixtures as long as you provide "the exit pathways to be illuminated, in the event that normal utility power is lost". that could be done with standalone emergency lighting fixtures.
click the underlined to get a wiki
see also https://www.etcconnect.com/uploaded...erstanding-Emergency-Lighting-2010-update.pdf

Yes - there are two issues - one is that normal means of egress must be illuminated whenever the building is occupied. Seat end aisle light are on aspect of this. Some places have used profile fixtures and framed to the aisle. I have seen this mostly in arenas and stadiums, and we have looked at it for black box spaces. The other is emergency lighting, which comes on automatically when the power fails. In our work, that is usually the house lights with and ELTS (and an emergency DMX bypass with LED houselights). The OPs space sounds like a found space and as such was probably designed with a combination night light - providing the normal means of egress lighting - but using same fixtures for emergency powered by either a local (to the fixture) battery or a emergency power supply - generator, inverter, or other. It's simple and inexpensive and common in school and offices, as well as retail.

Here's one product http://www.powersentrysafety.com/PDF/About/PSL600.pdf that might be a solution for turning off house lights and having emergence lighting at the expense of the ballasts installed and a switch leg. There are other solutions. It doesn't solve the normal illumination requirement. I know too little about the specifics to help but battery powered LED somethings on the seat ends, profiles on dimmer overhead, or other.

The tivoli question usually arises now, the concept so popular in cinema one-too-many complexes. It's my opinion they do not meet code because the walking surface is not illuminated, as required by codes.

 

[AlexDonkle]

Some places have used profile fixtures and framed to the aisle. I have seen this mostly in arenas and stadiums, and we have looked at it for black box spaces.

Just to add, this became standard because of the maintenance issues associated with chair aisle lights. They were a pain to change and often used rather unique lamps that were hard to find. With LED lights, we may start seeing some arenas use chair lights. Arena lights are nearly always mounted directly to a large catwalk system, so are always easy to change.

 

[BillConnerFASTC]

Just to add, this became standard because of the maintenance issues associated with chair aisle lights. They were a pain to change and often used rather unique lamps that were hard to find. With LED lights, we may start seeing some arenas and stadiums use chair lights. Arena lights are nearly always mounted directly to a large catwalk system, so are always easy to change.

I have thought that sometimes an S4 LED with a 90 degree lens would be very good for this. Even at great distances only looking for 0.2 fc. Long lasting, could be onboard preset level or unison. Too bad someone doesn't make a directional lens that reshapes beam into a (very) long oval.

I think there is a lot of initial labor costs to the aisle end solutions as well. and upper deck aisle may be 20+ plus rows which is 40+ junction boxes all with conduit in a slab or precast versus 1 or 2 overhead with surface mount to steel? Plus now they can color the aisles.

 

[tjrobb]

I think I may be restating what Bill said, but it is possible to have switched emergency lights. We have a small box attached to the incoming power that monitors the line ahead of the switch. Also attached are the control wires (occupancy sensor) and emergency circuit. If the box senses normal power failure it overrides the occupancy sensor to on and also transfers to the emergency circuit.
TL; DR - it is possible to have switched emergency lights that override on with power failure.

 

[AlexDonkle]

I have thought that sometimes an S4 LED with a 90 degree lens would be very good for this. Even at great distances only looking for 0.2 fc. Long lasting, could be onboard preset level or unison. Too bad someone doesn't make a directional lens that reshapes beam into a (very) long oval.

I think there is a lot of initial labor costs to the aisle end solutions as well. and upper deck aisle may be 20+ plus rows which is 40+ junction boxes all with conduit in a slab or precast versus 1 or 2 overhead with surface mount to steel? Plus now they can color the aisles.

They don't make it for the S4, but ETC does have the Oblong lens for their ColorSource Par and Desire fixtures. May be bright enough to meet minimum light levels for the aisles, assuming brighter fixtures are used over the seats.

 

[BillConnerFASTC]

Yes I know but not sure it would be sharp enough for the shutter cuts. We could experiment with directional frost and stretch it out a little.

Just seemed a plastic lens that projected a long narrow beam would be possible, at least sharp enough for decent shutter cuts.

 

[rphilip]

They don't make it for the S4, but ETC does have the Oblong lens for their ColorSource Par and Desire fixtures. May be bright enough to meet minimum light levels for the aisles, assuming brighter fixtures are used over the seats.

Is there any reason that the single direction diffusers for the d series fixtures (SELLEW) wouldn't work in a S4 par?

Philip