Recording hardware.

[CSCTech]

Hey guys,

I was thinking of trying to get some kind of recording setup. As we currently do not and the bands would love to have good audio recordings of their concerts.
It does not need to be anything fancy, even a somewhat good casset recorder would be fine.
Audio recording is an untoched region by me, never anything besides bringing in my laptop to record some voices for a part of a show. But looking for something that can stay there. For anyone who was going to say "Just get a computer.."

I have heard a lot about recording pieces designed for use in theatre but I wasnt sure if it just done on computers now.

Anyways, Something for recording and playback of the recording.

Or is it just done by computer with Aux Send-Mic Input Computer Output-Aux Return?

Thanks!

 

[DuckJordan]

That's how i do it! (that line brings back horrible memories of a directors idea of Shakespeare but that's a different rant) But it can provide some bad quality if you don't make sure your device is far away from any transformers. and have good audio connections (unfortunately we have to use 1/4" outs and ins instead of what i prefer of XLR since all of ours is being used.

 

[MisterTim]

Hey guys,

I was thinking of trying to get some kind of recording setup. As we currently do not and the bands would love to have good audio recordings of their concerts.
It does not need to be anything fancy, even a somewhat good casset recorder would be fine.
Audio recording is an untoched region by me, never anything besides bringing in my laptop to record some voices for a part of a show. But looking for something that can stay there. For anyone who was going to say "Just get a computer.."

Anyways, Something for recording and playback of the recording.

Or is it just done by computer with Aux Send-Mic Input Computer Output-Aux Return?

Every board will have a different way of doing this, if you tell us what board you're using, we can more accurately help you.

A (possibly) easier way to do this would be to use a tape input/out, which a lot of boards have, instead of using one of your aux sends. This will send your main feed out, which also requires less setup.

One thing to note is that you'll be sending a line output into a mic input, which never ends well. Some laptops have a switchable mic/line input, but not all. If yours does not, make sure you test it first to see if you can attenuate the signal enough on the laptop input to keep it usable with your recording software. If you can't (rare), then you'll need to put an attenuator on the output.

As far as other recording devices go, a laptop is certainly the easiest way to do it. Many standalone devices exist of varying qualities and for varying purposes, but none is going to be cheaper, simpler, or more straightforward than using a laptop and Audacity. If you have the budget and intent to buy a recording device, let us know and we can help you pick one out.

 

[CSCTech]

Hello,

We are currently using a Mackie VLZ SR 24-4.

Using my laptop would suffice but as I said looking for a more permanent thing. Are casset recorders still in use in todays world?

We have no real budget, for anything that is, however if the price is right we will consider it.

Thanks!


Edit:
And not the Mackie VLZ SR 24-4 Pro it is commonly shown in pictures labled not as the Pro model.

 

[MisterTim]

We are currently using a Mackie VLZ SR 24-4.

That board has no aux returns, so if you use an aux send, you'll have to put the input back into one of the mic/line inputs, so I would reiterate my recommendation of using the tape in/outputs.

Using my laptop would suffice but as I said looking for a more permanent thing. Are casset recorders still in use in todays world?

Not in any usual capacity.

We have no real budget, for anything that is, however if the price is right we will consider it.

Unless you can drop $400+, I would recommend staying with the laptop and not going for a standalone device.

Something like this would be very versatile and give you more capability if you need it, through the laptop, which is the route I would recommend you take.

Edit:
And not the Mackie VLZ SR 24-4 Pro it is commonly shown in pictures labled not as the Pro model.

Well I can't find any pictures of the non-pro version, but I think it's safe to assume it at least has the tape in/out jacks.

 

[bishopthomas]

You keep bringing up tape recorders so I'm going to suggest you look into standalone CD burners. Get away from cassettes for all the obvious reasons and at least into the 1990's. A CD burner will connect just like the cassette deck would, using a line out from your console into a line input on the recorder. Where you're taking that line out is really up to you and your situation, as there are several ways of doing it.

If you want whatever is going to FOH to go to the CD then just use the tape outs, L/R outs (I think the SR24 has both XLR and 1/4" so pick one you're not using), or the mono out can work if that's all you have left.

You can also use post fade auxes. Aux 5 can be left, aux 6 is right. Set the appropriate channel's aux 5/6 (more 5 for left, more 6 for right, equal amount for center) to unity to start and adjust accordingly. Since you're post fader everything you do with the fader will affect those auxes, so you'll have to keep that in mind while mixing FOH, but depending on your mixing style this could be desired.

Another option is to use pre fade auxes. Set up your L/R image the same as before, only now the fader does not affect the aux send levels. This will be the best way to build a discreet mix, but it will require a lot of attention and a good set of headphones in order to hear the mix.

 

[bishopthomas]

That board has no aux returns, so if you use an aux send, you'll have to put the input back into one of the mic/line inputs, so I would reiterate my recommendation of using the tape in/outputs.

If you want to use the tape input on the Mackie SR series you must press the appropriate button in the master section. Doing so will mute all other inputs, so you have to decide whether you're using the console "for real" or just playing back tunes. You can't do both at the same time, so this may or may not work for you. To return it back into the console just use either the stereo line ins or the 1/4" inputs on any of the other channels.

 

[CSCTech]

MisterTim,

Haha yes, very sorry about that you are right there are no Aux Returns.

This is the pro-

This is the normal, which we have. Not much difference.

bishop-
Yes I do not know why I have the image of recording and cassetes together for some reason I have assumed they are used in theatre after reading something somewhere.
A CD recorder that does essentually the same thing woud be fantastic as well, any links?


And yes the Tape Inputer to Main switch on the console would not be an option as the board would be to record and mix live at the same time.

And we actually use the Mono Out as our main output, having a mono system. We often use the Main Outs when we use backstage monitors or need front fill speakers for whatever reason.

 

[museav]

Maybe we should first establish what you are trying to do and the budget. There can be a big difference between what one might do for a basic archival recording and what one might do to create an end result for marketing, promotions or sales. Some of the same considerations can apply to playback, for example if the goal is a 'virtual sound check' you might want simple mono or two channel playback or you might want a multi-channel recording where you can address specific sources, say being able to playback only certain instruments.

The physical form of the recording can also be a factor. Will the recording be archived? Copied? Edited? Produced? If you may make copies, do you need them immediately after the performance? I personally like compact flash recorders for many applications, no moving parts to wear out and it can be easy to transfer the files.

Why do you apparently believe that "just get a computer" and it being a permanent solution are exclusive? For not that much more than the cost of a good CD recorder or similar solution you might be able to get a computer, interface and inexpensive or even free recording software. Then you have something that you might also be able to do a lot more with in the future.

 

[bishopthomas]

A CD recorder that does essentually the same thing woud be fantastic as well, any links?

And we actually use the Mono Out as our main output, having a mono system. We often use the Main Outs when we use backstage monitors or need front fill speakers for whatever reason.

Tascam makes some (TASCAM). I use the HHB CDR882 because it has two drives, allowing two discs instances of the same material to be recorded, copies to be made, or (the coolest feature) continuous recording across both drives. There are other companies out there, including Marantz, but Tascam is probably the most popular.

Are you using both sets of main outs? There should be both 1/4" and XLR L/R outputs. If you are then you still have the tape outs, or you could always Y-split the main outs if you have to.

 

[CSCTech]

museav,

I am not ruling it out however I just figured it would be easier. And I could probably ask the IT department for a computer if needed. I am just looking for different ways of doing things ; )

Well, the recordings most likely will not be sold, or if they are, in small amounts. Quality does not need to be the best but decent. Any kind of format, be it CD, or flash.

I could always get a every day voice recorder with microphone input I suppose, but like I said, just looking for different ideas.



Bishop,

Thanks I will look at that, And we are not using either 1/4'' Main Outs or XLR stereo outs, we are using the XLR Mono Out as we have a mono system (Might change with this years reno.).



This isnt a huge deal : ) I know i can just get a computer or a simple handheld recorder, but, like I said I have never dabbled with recording.

 

[bishopthomas]

A computer is a good way to go if you are planning on doing editing later. If you want a quick and relatively painless recording for the (physical) archives then the CD recorder is the only option. You can easily dub copies if you need to, and everyone will understand how to play them. Now, if you don't want to store the media then go into a computer and save them to MP3. You'll have to edit the files for at least track markings (unless you're fine with one continuous track), then burn CD's from there if anyone requests a copy.

What you're planning on doing with the audio will determine what media works best for you. If you're going a more "traditional" route then CD's will be what is requested, if you're trying to "get with the times" (iPods, files on web site, etc) then you'll probably want to get it into a computer, at least eventually.

 

[DuckJordan]

museav,

I am not ruling it out however I just figured it would be easier. And I could probably ask the IT department for a computer if needed. I am just looking for different ways of doing things ; )

Well, the recordings most likely will not be sold, or if they are, in small amounts. Quality does not need to be the best but decent. Any kind of format, be it CD, or flash.

I could always get a every day voice recorder with microphone input I suppose, but like I said, just looking for different ideas.



Bishop,

Thanks I will look at that, And we are not using either 1/4'' Main Outs or XLR stereo outs, we are using the XLR Mono Out as we have a mono system (Might change with this years reno.).



This isnt a huge deal : ) I know i can just get a computer or a simple handheld recorder, but, like I said I have never dabbled with recording.

Just remember just because a band performs the music does not mean they own the rights to it. So be careful when you sell the CD's.

 

[CSCTech]

From what I know the music department has rights to all their sheet music and actually writes most of it. But thank you I will make sure to ask them. (They would be selling them anyways)

Well, I think I will ask opinions of the Music Dept. and if they want to spend around $250 for a standalone cd burner I found which looks pretty decent then great. If not I will see if the IT dept. can get us a computer.

 

[jstroming]

If you decide to go the multitrack recorder route...I LOVE LOVE LOVE Yamaha's AW1600. For basic track recording they really are a dream. I'm using them for audio commentary on tour, and out of the thousands of hours Ive used them I've only had them freeze up a few times (and even that was probably operator error). I also have Alesis ADAT HD24's, which are great for full rig setups, but for just run and gun recording the AW1600 cant be beat at that price point.

I know a guy in LA I met at the Whisky one night who just goes from club to club, recording the gig for different bands. He does Whisky, Viper Room, Rainbow, etc....Pay-to-play places that up and comers want a "listen to us play live at whisky a go-go" CD. He charges the band $100 for a few copies on CD, plus the tracks. If 3 of the 5 bands want it (which they normally do), he makes $300 + free drinks for a few hours work. He uses the AW1600, and swears by it. I tried it and I love it too. User interface takes a while but not terrible.

 

[venuetech]

Zoom H4
or some other "Portable Digital Recorder"

Presto model E

 

[museav]

From what I know the music department has rights to all their sheet music and actually writes most of it. But thank you I will make sure to ask them. (They would be selling them anyways)

This keeps coming up but there are different types of rights and having one, say performance rights, does not necessarily mean you have all, say recording or distribution rights. You may have a license that covers multiple aspects but just be careful not to assume that having purchased some rights means having all rights.

Well, I think I will ask opinions of the Music Dept. and if they want to spend around $250 for a standalone cd burner I found which looks pretty decent then great. If not I will see if the IT dept. can get us a computer.

You might also compare the media cost and time involved. Not that blank CDs are that expensive, but there is some cost involved as well as the issue of how to archive them, make copies, etc.

 

[jbrem003]

The good news is that it sounds like you already have the hard part of any recording system completed. I'm assuming mic's are hung, your board is able to handle an output and you're ready to record. I do have to say that it is a better idea to isolate a separate mix of your sound for recording if you're ever planning on using wireless mic's. The levels for a wireless show (when properly mixed) are constantly being adjusted depending on who's singing at who when and how. If you're planning on doing straight recordings using just installed mic's then using a tape out is your best bet. Otherwise I would opt for your original aux idea.
Using cassettes to record isn't an unheard of idea, and before the digital era was quite common. (I remember when BETA used to have the superior audio format and people would record sound effects using their videocameras.) But you want to stay current with technology to the best of your ability. Especially if people will be learning sound on this system, you don't want to be teaching something that has floated so far from industry standard as to recieve ridicule (which is where cassettes lie at this point.) Plus they are something you have to purchase a consumable material for, and end up costing money just to operate. For the same financial cost I would highly consider a baseline Mac mini. It comes with a free program called GarageBand which may not be in the realm of PRO Audio, but posesses all the basic principles and functions of any high performance Digital Audio Workstation (DAW) such as ProTools or Logic (software used in the professional sector for recording.) It will also allow you to upgrade if you ever find the desire to do so to something more professional grade. The line you really sound like you don't want to cross is spending money though, which is understandable. The world of sound is the last to have reached independence in the world of theater, but has by no means been undeveloped. In concert venues, sound systems easily enter into the hundreds of thousand of dollars range, and all the exact same technology is now being discovered by theater venues. What Theater may see as a "unreasonable" price is astronomically cheaper then what industry standard has been set as for the last few decades, and with the advent of computers, the 'home recording studio' has become a very recent reality.

(Sorry for the history rant, I just completed a seminar for theatrical sound system design where many of us shared industry stories dating back about two decades )

Long story short, yes, cassettes are acceptable and they will get the job done, there are many reasons this will become a hassle for you in the long run.

If there is enough interest in providing recording, I would gather information on some equipment and propose it to the powers that be for an annual budget consideration. Rushing into a quick solution may only end up spending money that could be set aside for something more useful and constructive. Digital audio IS where audio has found it's future. Analog is nostalgic at best.

Hope this helps!

-Jon Bremner
Resident Designer,
"Generic Theater," Norfolk, VA

 

[CSCTech]

jbrem,

Yes, we have 6 installed hanging area mics, 4 installed floor area mics and 10 wireless beltpacks. And we have the main outputs (1/4'' stereo), main outputs (XLR stereo), and there is useally one or two monitors for a concert so either the main outs or an aux would be used (out o 4 pre 2 post. So needless to say we have enough outputs, not o mentioned the tape outs : )

Pretty sure tapes would be out by now, and so now I am just trying to decide between standalone CD burners, handheld digital recorders with line inputs, or a computer.

 

[museav]

Digital audio IS where audio has found it's future. Analog is nostalgic at best.

Darn, now I have to go find some digital performers and get some digital ears.

Humans are analog beings and as long as humans are involved and audio involves more than just an electronic signal or signal path, then it inherently has an analog component.

Don't overlook compact flash or similar media recorders, while this is what most modern portable recorders use there are also rack mount style media recorders.