Replace Tungsten Ellipsoidals with LEDs 1-1 or X/Y?

[Peter Mahoney]

Good morning,

The high school I work for currently uses Strand SLs (not sure on model but about 16 years old) and the sockets in the majority of them are at or near the end of life and need to be replaced. Instead of replacing the sockets we may make the move to LED Ellipsoidals.

We hang about 27 or so fixtures in a cove and initially I thought we might do a 1-1 replacement. However since there are a few LED options which have RGB+whatever palettes could we purchase 10 replacements instead of 27? Before we used to hang 27 and gel 9 red, 9 amber and 9 green. Now with LEDs we could use the palette to obtain those colors from one fixture.

The main question is:
Anyone who has made the switch to LED Ellipsoidals did you decrease the amount of fixtures you hang or did you do a 1-1 replacement?

Note: for the title I meant Halogen instead of Tungsten

 

[SteveB]

There are a bunch of good LED ellipsoidals that are of a quality to replace Strand and incandescent S4's. Ovation and ETC come to mind.

We got a nice funding line and purchased 134 ETC Lustr II's as well as 52 D60's and assorted ChromaQ ColorForce II strips, this inventory in addition to the 200 S4 incandescent ellpsoidals and Pars provided with the new building. In my experience the Lustr II is a great fixture and we are very happy with light output and color.

7 shows later for the Dept. of Theater and I think the students have used maybe 5 incandescents all told. Everything has been a full or nearly full LED rig. We - the technical support staff, question the wisdom of allowing the students the use of nothing but LED's, as I'm of the opinion that they need to learn to use gel, but not my call.

But expect that when you hang LED's, they will not want to do a system of LED's and a system of incandescent if only as it relieves them of the angst of picking colors out of a gel book.

As well, be prepared to spend more time getting an LED rig up and running. 4 cables per unit if you pass-thru power and data, unlike the single connection for an incandescent. Then need power to address, more patch stuff to deal with. Which profile at the fixture, which at the desk, etc...... our experience is 4 times as long to get the LED rig readly for focus, though we are getting better.

 

[Peter Mahoney]

There are a bunch of good LED ellipsoidals that are of a quality to replace Strand and incandescent S4's. Ovation and ETC come to mind.

We got a nice funding line and purchased 134 ETC Lustr II's as well as 52 D60's and assorted ChromaQ ColorForce II strips, this inventory in addition to the 200 S4 incandescent ellpsoidals and Pars provided with the new building. In my experience the Lustr II is a great fixture and we are very happy with light output and color.

7 shows later for the Dept. of Theater and I think the students have used maybe 5 incandescents all told. Everything has been a full or nearly full LED rig. We - the technical support staff, question the wisdom of allowing the students the use of nothing but LED's, as I'm of the opinion that they need to learn to use gel, but not my call.

But expect that when you hang LED's, they will not want to do a system of LED's and a system of incandescent if only as it relieves them of the angst of picking colors out of a gel book.

As well, be prepared to spend more time getting an LED rig up and running. 4 cables per unit if you pass-thru power and data, unlike the single connection for an incandescent. Then need power to address, more patch stuff to deal with. Which profile at the fixture, which at the desk, etc...... our experience is 4 times as long to get the LED rig readly for focus, though we are getting better.

Our students would not be going up into the cove, so it would be myself or another school employee adjusting the fixtures.
We do not have a Theater Group/Class so most of our students are volunteers and we are trying to provide them with an appreciation of Theater support roles (lighting/sound/sets).
I am slightly concerned about our system's (Leprecon LPC-48V) ability to handle additional DMX channels because we already have 6-8 Blizzard HotStik EXAs setup, that is another reason why I am wondering if we need to do a 1-1 replacement of incandescent fixtures to LEDs. Or could we buy 10-15 LEDs and do the same thing that we are currently doing with 27 incandescent fixtures.

 

[SteveB]

Our students would not be going up into the cove, so it would be myself or another school employee adjusting the fixtures.
We do not have a Theater Group/Class so most of our students are volunteers and we are trying to provide them with an appreciation of Theater support roles (lighting/sound/sets).
I am slightly concerned about our system's (Leprecon LPC-48V) ability to handle additional DMX channels because we already have 6-8 Blizzard HotStik EXAs setup, that is another reason why I am wondering if we need to do a 1-1 replacement of incandescent fixtures to LEDs. Or could we buy 10-15 LEDs and do the same thing that we are currently doing with 27 incandescent fixtures.

Sounds like a new console is in the cards. Element, Cognito both recommended, though my preference as bang-for-buck is an Ion.

 

[macsound]

While there are situations where 1 color changing LED fixture can replace more than 1 conventional, for example one zone that needs to change color, there are many other times where color mixing on stage gives your show more depth and personality than color mixing in the fixture.
An example of 2 high side lights, one in amber and one in CTB create a very different effect on a painted set, drop or actor than a single n/c light, even though on the spectrum, the ultimate color may end up being the same.

 

[RickR]

So often here we like to answer a question with a question. Mine is how much do you run at white or pale colors.

LEDs tend to be short of a match for incandescents at full white and vastly outperform them in deep rich colors. So if your RAB colors are all deep so white must use all of them, then you can probably replace 1:3. However if your gels are middle to pale tones then more fixtures will be needed. There are some cases where the LEDs put out far less than a well maintained SL, and some SLs that are so old and worn that they only do half of their original brightness.

Also keep in mind that many vendor data sheets show ideal conditions. Allow about 20% down from those numbers for a usable value 5 years down the road.

 

[DGotlieb]

If I am understanding correctly you have 3 colors all from approximately the same position hitting the same area, repeat 9 times. In that case yes you probably can replace those 3 units for just 1 unit. Though you may lose intensity if you regularly used two units above 60% for example. The best way to really know is contact a local rep and have them give you some units to test in your space.
If you do find you don't have enough intensity things you could do is go from 9 to 12 areas. Or maybe leave 1 system of your 9 best incandescent in no color to mix with your new LED system.
if you currently have your lights crossing from different angles then you probably want 1 led from each angle still.
Again get some lights your looking at into your space and see what works for you and your space.

 

[BillConnerFASTC]

I figure about 2/3 or 2 led for 3 incandescents. You have 9 x 3 colors but you may need 2 colors from different angles at same time and replacing 3 with 1 is not the same. Side top and back lights are a little simpler but if you have pink and blue backlights from but from left and right, that's completely different from one RGB straight back.

 

[DGotlieb]

I figure about 2/3 or 2 led for 3 incandescents. You have 9 x 3 colors but you may need 2 colors from different angles at same time and replacing 3 with 1 is not the same. Side top and back lights are a little simpler but if you have pink and blue backlights from but from left and right, that's completely different from one RGB straight back.

Agreed. You get more flexibility by having 2 angles. My comment was based off the assumption their plot is designed around these lights are from the same angle, and budget is limited.

 

[macsound]

So often here we like to answer a question with a question. Mine is how much do you run at white or pale colors.

LEDs tend to be short of a match for incandescents at full white and vastly outperform them in deep rich colors. So if your RAB colors are all deep so white must use all of them, then you can probably replace 1:3. However if your gels are middle to pale tones then more fixtures will be needed. There are some cases where the LEDs put out far less than a well maintained SL, and some SLs that are so old and worn that they only do half of their original brightness.

Also keep in mind that many vendor data sheets show ideal conditions. Allow about 20% down from those numbers for a usable value 5 years down the road.

This too is why I'm hopeful that cheaper/ smaller lights and moving lights use the technique of having a white LED engine and adding color filters into the white light.
It's always so frustrating to find a small LED fixture, only to find out it barely makes white light but does RGB far too well for most theatrical applications. I'm looking at you GLP.