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Replacement lamp for Kliegl 44N8 fresnel fixture

Discussion in 'Lighting and Electrics' started by dvlasak, Nov 3, 2006.

  1. dvlasak

    dvlasak Active Member

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    The school where I work has some REALLY old Kliegl Brothers Fresnel fixtures. The number on the fixtures is 44N8. They also had a very large supply of very old lamps for these fixtures. Well, I finally used the last up and now need to find something to replace that lamp. Unfortunately, someone had taken all the lamps out of the master case & now I do not know what the old lamp number was. According to the Kliegl web site, the lamp number was 1M/G40/23. Anyone out there familiar with what replaces the 1M/G40/23? Your help is greatly appreciated!!

    Dennis
     
    Last edited: Nov 3, 2006
  2. Van

    Van CBMod CB Mods Premium Member

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    Wow That's a mogul based, G40 < round globe style >, 1k incandescent lamp, cranking out a whopping 23,000 lumens. Good luck, that's goiung to be in somebodies backroom somewhere, but your not going to find it in anyones normal stock. There isn't even an ANSI code for that lamp ! You might check with Kleigel to see if there is an upgrade kit available. this would entail replaceing the lamp base with something more standard like a BTL. I think the lamp you are replaceing is a "barrel" filament so you would need to replace the reflector as well to re-flect < hehehe> the change to a planar style filament. You might try the following; Kay has pulled some amazing tricks in the past comming up wit lamps I did'n think possible.
    [SIZE=-1][/SIZE]
    Sunlan Lighting
    [SIZE=-1]3901 N Mississippi Ave
    Portland, OR 97227
    (503) 281-0453[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=-1]
    http://www.sunlanlighting.com/sunlanlighting/Page1.html[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=-1][/SIZE]
    [SIZE=-1]She's eccentric in the extreme and an absolute hoot ! she might have what your'e looking for. [/SIZE]
    [SIZE=-1]I really think it's time to replace those fixtures though. Please tell me they don't still have the asbestos tails on them ?
    [/SIZE]
     
  3. fosstech

    fosstech Active Member

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    I second that opinion on replacing them. The lamps are going to be prohibitively expensive considering that nobody has them and they may not even be made anymore (maybe Ship can confirm?). Upgrading them probably won't be cost effective anyway, since you can get a brand new Altman fresnel for less than $100. And it'll come with a warranty, readily available and cheaper lamps, and brand new safe and up to code wiring.
     
  4. ship

    ship Senior Team Emeritus Premium Member

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    #44N8TVG 8" Fresnel: 1M/G40/23, 1500/G40/21, 2M/G48/5 are the three lamps rated for this fixture. None exist in my lamp spec. notes.


    (This is either out of the Photometrics Handbook or Phillips Lamp Conversion Chart - don't remember which if either.) Could be off the Kliegl Bros. (Historic) website.

    http://www.klieglbros.com/ Kliegl as a brand name went out of business in the late 1980's, they no longer exist as a company. (Sorry, no upgrade kits from them.) Contacting the webmaster of the website however given Kliegl is the name and history they are trying to preserve might lead to some ideas on who to talk to about lamps for the fixtures. Most or many fans of the old company such as I have at one point or another no doubt checked in with it in thanking them for the website and preservation of historic info about fixtures still in use. Eric’s (one of the webmasters) is good people, believe he is even a member (inactive) of this website. The guys running the Kliegl website beyond lamps might help in giving advice for resale of your fixtures so as to buy newer ones or who might be interested in shopping for ones of your model - never know until you ask what they know or could help with. Should you speak with the guys from the website remind them of Controlbooth for such a question they should have been all over in checking into every once in a while.

    Other options: Such fixtures and parts at best exist on E-Bay (rare) and possibly on the shelves of Vara-Light/Dimatronics/Hub Electric (Old parts Dist., Owned by Altman) 6207 Commercial Rd. Crystal Lake, Il. 60014. (815)455-4400 They are the only company in existence which is known to have been over the years buying up the parts for incandescent S/S fixture companies that go out of business. They would or could also have CD-80 parts in stock (another post topic). I’ll run a check in the morning to three of my lamp suppliers in seeing if they have any of this discontinued lamp in stock (doubtful) but also it’s possible Hub might have some discontinued lamps. Could be they dont' stock lamps, in that case if they are of the mood they might reference you to old time sources potentially having this lamp gathering dust on the shelf.

    The Kliegl Brother’s Website also has a few other websites for sales/service in parts to check.



    Contact the Antique Bulb Collector’s Forum also, some of the guys from that website might know of sources that have old lamp collections for retail and or even be able to re-filament and make the lamps live another day your bad lamps. This or perhaps even buy up your old even bad lamps that are no longer useful in that fixture. Perhaps even buy the fixture. As with any forum, read the rules of posting first and perhaps contact the webmaster before posting so as to ensure your post follows the guidelines of posting best. http://www.bulbcollector.com/ Lots of old lamp type experts on that forum that will jump at the chance to help you on this lamp type. The guys on this website know more about lamps than anyone has business knowing. (Yes, there are bigger lamp nerds than I in the industry.)

    I know I certainly do not have this lamp in stock... that would be all I need in having to justify it’s existence - loss of profit on my end of year accounting inventory of lamps. On the other hand, I’ll stick my hat in the fan in saying I would also be someone that has lots of experience in making something into something else such as these fixtures. I could even make them LED should you wish - been there, done that in addition to having in the past made 10Kw Fresnels into 1Kw ones, yet that bench focus of the lamp still being centered on the reflector once I was done. Lots of Euro fixtures converted to American, lots of other conversions in the past even 9-Lite mole lights converted to six light with strobe lights stuck in the center of them.

    No doubt a few fixture tinkerers/fabricators on the site and elsewhere who work for places would also jump at the chance to play with such toys.

    (You pay for such types in allowing them to tinker or play with your gear on the other hand, thus it’s half harted the offer that I would tinker for pay with your gear - my rate is not cheap in doing such things due to work load and experience in doing such things. That’s a corporate type thing and at any moment in the day I more juggle any one of six projects that need to get done very soon than have time to focus on any one over another. Adding another project to my day costs money in taking me away from a fully booked schedule thus I’m not seeking more stuff to work on. In part also why I don’t advertise where I work in generating sales during my off time from work. Would love to tinker with the lights, no time.)

    Hub no doubt could also do a factory quality retrofit of the fixture. Have to call and even visit them one of these days - as much as I speak highly about them one would think at least once I have done business with them. Overall, it’s possible to upgrade such fixtures, but would take some measurements and calculations in doing so - that’s a touchie feelie type of thing.

    This is a Big no doubt heavy 8" and powerful Fresnel. You won't get a 2Kw rated 8" Fresnel for under $100.00 these days. (Perhaps a very trashed Mole light for that price but it will also need serious work.) Replacing it with something rated for the same wattage isn't worth the price - much cheaper to fix it and or upgrade what you have. This assuming that you want to have as much range in wattage as the fixture is designed for. This is a classic 2Kw movie industry Studio Fresnel, it would be a shame to only do 1Kw out of it or make it into something lesser. Otherwise it might be cost effective to replace the fixtures with some 1Kw Stage 8" Fresnels if 1,000 Watts is the normal wattage and save/preserve for a later generation with cash and interest in making a historic antique work to spec the Kliegl fixtures for future needs or bringing up to par. I would not as advice recommend this fixture for continued use as what it is. It either needs to be an antique museum piece for you or somewhere donated to or has to be upgraded to another incantation of a 2Kw Fresnel. As a 1Kw fixture it probably is not worth upgrading unless you really want to keep using it.

    I would upgrade the fixture if saving it and intending to use it as a up to 2Kw fixture, to a G-38 (Mog. Bi-Post) lamp base (assuming a P-40s already) so at that point you can use the very common locational Fresnel CYX lamps at 2Kw (or better yet, Thorn CYX HX-2400 lamps) or lamp down to the 1kw CYV or 1.5Kw CXZ lamps as necessary. This assuming that such large lamps once retrofitted will fit in the fixture. Given I don’t have the fixture on hand and the lamp specs, it would take some reverse engineering and measurements to re-focus a completely different lamp and lamp bast type into the center of the reflector now. This is all theoretical thus on my part in yes, it’s possible but what solution is possible I would not stand by until I started tinkering.

    There is also some very long life and medium long life lamps available for the fixture in these 1Kw/1.5Kw/2Kw G-38 wattages that would balance lamp cost with lamp life in exchange for lamp life. Not much available but there is some. This given it cold take a CYX lamp with at least 1" clearance between glass and top of fixture, yet still center the filament on the reflector.

    Not sure if I were normally doing a 1Kw lamp in the fixture if I would bother upgrading it but unless the above lamps were too tall in overall size to fit - possible given a G-40 lamp used to be in the fixture, the as said "BTL" series of medium pre-focus (P-28s) lamp would be another option for lamps that are now shorter. The 500w BTL would not have enough output/punch but a 1Kw BTR would be a good start. Not a great lamp life or efficiency on the BTR lamp. As another option, and given Osram/Sylvania still makes the 1.2Kw FSG lamp, it would be the highest output medium-prefocus lamp on the market and your fixture should you not be able to do the Mog Bi-Pin (G-38) lamps above, the second best option. 100hours on this lamp so buy lots of them if available. Than of course if doing an upgrade one could also just upgrade to something such as a FEL in a G-9.5 base or even JCV 120v-1200w/CH in the same lamp base but having “more power.” Just waiting on the day I get to upgrade a Altman 1000 follow spot to play test this lamp. Too bad in the case of the follow spot that the FEL-R lamp is discontinued I believe. A FEL with internal reflector might be useful...

    OK Van. - great details but you need to specify if it's Mog Screw, Mog Bi-Post or Mog Pre-Focus to make my life easy by way of cheating on the test given your answer. :) Your notes on this lamp type and filament type are much more extensive than mine. Give me all your info for my notes. If not, great advice and things to consider.

    Not seeing these lamps in my notes so all of these lamps have to be pre-1986 GE catalog where my lamp notes start.

    Closest lamp I have notes on is this, and I don't know if it's the same lamp - the LCL measurement would be the key in this. Sounds likely but it's long gone.


    1M/G40PSP G.E. #22203 (?disc.) (Disc.) CL, Incd. SP (HRG) 1 Kw G-40 c-5 LCL 3.15/16" Mog PF Base Down to Horz 25,000 Lum 200hr

    Long discontinued but some of my sources might have one or two on the shelf - I’ll check around.

    Still my advice is that you don’t upgrade this fixture. Preserve it in a coating of WD-40 in a plastic bag and with the origional even if bad lamp, and tuck it away somewhere for another generation and a later day. Leave a note on it or all the notes you can find on it with a do not open tag. Let someone else in the future have this or these fixtures. Leave them your mom’s phone number with your name in contacting you in a future day should they wish to work on them and wish to contact you by way of some permanent phone number.

    It’s an antique that savely unless you really need a 2Kw fixture can safely be removed from your inventory and replaced. Don’t upgrade it unless you really cannot afford to do otherwise.
     
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2006
  5. fosstech

    fosstech Active Member

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    I guess I was wrong in thinking it was a 6" (which can be had for under $100, not including lamp and connector). Should have thought about it more, since older 6" fresnels are not rated for 1kW.
     
  6. ship

    ship Senior Team Emeritus Premium Member

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    Contacted a supplier today, his reply was "All are long gone. We do have a sub listed for the 1M/G40/23.... BVT or BVV."

    My response was with jaw dropped, urr... da,!!! halogen upgrade lamps! Even I stock these types of lamps... dummy me. All I had to do was scroll down a few lamps on my list, compare the LCL's and it will have told me a lot. This much less now I know what fixtures these types of lamp potentially were for. The BVT, BVV and BVW have been in my lamp inventory for at least eight years now without any being used.

    So ignore all above advice (from everyone) about swapping lamp bases and or anything else by me or anyone else - just buy the halogen upgraded versions of this lamp. Egg on my face for not noting this in the origional long winded reply. Your fixtures as long as they are in servicable condition are just fine to leave the way they are and in fact will now become more effiecient.


    It would also than confirm that the above 1M/G40PSP (GE #22203) I have notes on would if found work in the fixture also as another lamp alternative.

    (assuming that the tube shape halogen lamps will fit into the fixture, this will be the most cost effective solution. Tube lamps are normally longer thus my caution, but given it's a G-40 lamp they are replacing, it should fit. MOL of the T-7 lamp base to tip is 7.1/4". I don't have the measurements MOL of a incandescent Mogul Prefocus G-40 globe size lamp.)

    The BVT available from GE, Osram, Ushio and Wiko is a 1Kw T-7 tube glass dia, c-13D filament lamp. It's LCL is 3.15/16" and that's the key factor in matching the modern lamp to the old one. From the pre-focus fins on the old lamp measure to the center of the filament. This should also be 3.15/16".

    Same lamp base type, as opposed to the old lamp that was probably having a burning position of "base down to horizontal" these lamps (except the GE) are any burning position.

    Color temperature should be better than you are used to at 3,050̊K (not great in color temperature but decent. Lamp output should be just about the same or a little less at 24,500 to 23,000 Lumens, but maintain that output longer. Lamp life is 500 hours which is probably similar to the incandescent lamps.

    The alternative lamp is the BVV.
    Same companies make the lamp with the same basic notes and psysical specifications as the BVT.

    The BVV lamp is the high output version of this lamp type. It's color Temperature is 3,200̊K, and Luminous output between 27,500 and 28,500. Lamp life is 200 hours.


    IN upgraded halogen lamps, the CWZ now replaces the 1500/G40/21, possibly Osram but definately Ushio and Wiko still make this lamp. Good output, color temperature and lamp life.

    The BVW would be the 2Kw version of this 2M/G48/5 lamp. GE, Osram, Ushio and Wiko also make it.
     
  7. Van

    Van CBMod CB Mods Premium Member

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    so Ship, is that a mogul screw base ? thge bvv I mean.
     
  8. ship

    ship Senior Team Emeritus Premium Member

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    nope, it's a mogul pre-focus base. I'm prefering Euro terms these days much better in being more accurate than say medium bi-pin that could be about anything.

    "so Ship, is that a E-39 ? thge bvv I mean." No, it's a P-40s...


    Problem with the term "Mog" is that there is three types of mog not including Euro versions of it. Mog Pre-Focus (P-40s), Mog Screw (E-39) and Mog Bi-Pin (G-38)
     
  9. Van

    Van CBMod CB Mods Premium Member

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    I can understand that. I'm just used to using the term Mogul -<type>... whichever type it is . I mean you still call it a mediium prefocus, screw, bi-pin, or mini, etc etc etc < that's et cetera, not e.t.c > I'ts kind of like prefering to spell it color instead of colour. or saying "sked yule" instead of "shed yul" . :mrgreen:
     
  10. derekleffew

    derekleffew Resident Curmudgeon Senior Team Premium Member

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  11. ship

    ship Senior Team Emeritus Premium Member

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