Mixers/Consoles Roland M200i vs Behringer X32

gafftaper

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My buddy's high school theater is getting a sound system remodel on a pretty tight budget. They were originally looking at an analog console, but the company which got the bid is suggesting a M200i. I've seen very little discussion around here about it, but the X32 of course has gotten a lot of love here and is very similar in price.

This theater always has adult staff, and students are trained to run it, when good students are found to train. So there is no danger of untrained people being put in charge of the console. What are your opinions on the M200i vs the X32?
 
The M400i is actually 5 grand when you get it up to 32in/16 out and buy the iPad.

I did a 3 day run on its big brother, the M480. Festival gig, monitors from FOH, etc. First time ever touching any of the Roland gear. It is pretty similar to the way Yamaha stuff works. Stuff does get hidden rather quick. I have a feeling that in the M200 and the iPad that happens even faster. The steup on the REAC remote boxes is a bit cumbersome. Sound wise the console sounded good. I did not like that I did not have the scribble strips. I also did not like I had to dig to get to comps/gates/etc. Onboard effects were decent. For me, the console worked fine and sounded good but I don't think it at all was better then an X32.

Few big things are really helpful with the X32 over the Roland stuff. First, scribble strips make working with layers MUCH easier. Second, you actually have handles for your outputs. Third, you have pots for nearly every function. On the M200 it looks like you have to really be into using the iPad for everything. I have a feeling that would become a real paint quick.

Go with the X32. Before the X32 came out I would have considered the Roland but these days there is no reason to spend that kind of cash for less flexibility.
 
So Kyle have you ever replaced the expensive console that died prompting you to buy the X32 in the first place?
 
First, calling a Crest Monitor X expensive is a bit of an exaggeration...

But... Yup!

Just bought two Midas Pro2 consoles w/ DL251 stage boxes and iPads for each.

In July our Heritage 1k started producing intermittent crackling on one of the sub groups. The problem was not in the sub group/vca/aux strip. We had a tech on site that also found a decent amount of corrosion. So, instead of spending 3k-5k to strip, clean, and troubleshoot the problem on a console that now goes for under 5k... we decided to replace it. So, by the middle of next month we should have a Pro2 at FOH and a Pro2 at monitors on separate stage boxes. Just finished up all the drawings last night, its going to be a bit of a bear to get all of our patch panels moved over. We will also be pulling Cat6 to FOH and 16 more pairs of analog audio.

Initially we were going to buy an SC48 to replace the monitor desk. But that project never got any real legs, hence the X32. So, when the FOH console went south we rammed the project through an made it happen. I'll post before/after pictures when the whole thing gets going at the end of the month.

And yes... we will be keeping the X32. That console really has earned it stripes. I am also REALLY interested to hear how it sounds hooked up to one of the DL251 stage boxes. Personally, we were not crazy about how the X32 sounded on the more chill shows such as solo acoustic/bluegrass/etc. The preamps do sound a bit sterile. For a rock band you don't hear it. It is still one of my favorite desks to do monitors on.
 
My buddy's high school theater is getting a sound system remodel on a pretty tight budget. They were originally looking at an analog console, but the company which got the bid is suggesting a M200i. I've seen very little discussion around here about it, but the X32 of course has gotten a lot of love here and is very similar in price.

This theater always has adult staff, and students are trained to run it, when good students are found to train. So there is no danger of untrained people being put in charge of the console. What are your opinions on the M200i vs the X32?
Can you tell us a bit more about the situation? For example, would it be just a direct console replacement or might any digital snake functionality be involved? Are they proposing any other changes such as changes to the system processing associated with changing to a digital console? How many and what types of inputs and outputs need to be supported? Would they potentially be doing any soft or virtual patching or would physical I/O assignments pretty much be configured once and not change?

Without stage boxes the M200i is more limited in terms of physical I/O than the X32, however if what the M200i supports is sufficient for the application that may not be a factor. And while it can be operated without an iPad, the M200i virtually requires an iPad to be used effectively for live productions. Not only may that mean that they want to include the cost of an iPad in the system cost, but I am also not sure the iPad is physically secured in any way to the console so they may want to also address that.
 
It's a full system upgrade, full new rack, speakers, cable runs, but done on a fairly tight budget. I don't know all the details of what is going in the rack but it's being done by a well respected local audio company so they will do it right. There was a while they thought they might get stuck keeping their old Mackie 4x32 mixer because the budget is that tight. The original specifications called for an analog console as there wasn't enough cash to go with a $10k+ digital mixer. But This project has been in the works for several years. The company who got the bid is now saying to my friend, with the new cheaper digital mixers, combined with the savings of not running lots of cable for an analog mixer, they can afford a M200i instead of an analog system. My friend asked my opinion on the M200i and I suggested they should also look at the X32 as I've never heard of the M200i and there is VERY LITTLE in the way of reviews on it. The only actual review by someone who has used the M200i that I could find was two little customer feedback reviews from Sweetwater. There are lots of articles comparing the specs of the X32 and M200i, but I can't find a single hands on in depth review of the M200i (How does it sound? How is it to operate? etc). That concerns me compared to the volumes of material written about the X32.
They are offering a free iPad with the M200i. Security of the iPad is not too big of a concern. Yes there are always security issues with school theaters, but the booth is quite secure and no students are allowed up there without adult supervision.

I see you can't access more than 16 XLR inputs on the M200i without a digital input. That seems like it could be a real problem for this specific situation. Although I do expect they will buy a digital snake, There are some shows where more than 16 wireless mics are in use from the booth. But what happens if he needs 24 wireless mics from the booth and 6 wired mics on stage? That could be a real pain.
 
And there in lies the "price point" between the X32 and say Yamaha's offerings i think Gafftaper. IT's not quite as flexible. You can always run enough channels from stage and piggy back your existing board in the X32 when necessary. Unless it's frequently then maybe look at Used LS932?

[EDIT]

If you run all analog from stage you can patch as needed at the console for say (24) in booth, and (8) from stage. I believe if you go partial digital/analog is where you'd run into problems/expense with this console. Digitally it would require a 32 digital box in your booth , and you can only even then patch in in groups of 8 if what i've read from the X32 thread is correct.
 
If you run all analog from stage you can patch as needed at the console for say (24) in booth, and (8) from stage. I believe if you go partial digital/analog is where you'd run into problems/expense with this console. Digitally it would require a 32 digital box in your booth , and you can only even then patch in in groups of 8 if what i've read from the X32 thread is correct.
Yes, although channel assignments are done on an indvidual channel basis, much of the X32 physical input patching is in blocks of 8 inputs. Not generally a problem until you start dealing with situations like a stage wall plate with eight microphone inputs tied to eight stage box inputs that would have to be assigned as a block and you want to use just some of those eight inputs but have to assign all eight to the mixer. Or twelve local wireless mics that would require patching that as sixteen local inputs. In those cases you canb find yourself with few usable inputs than you expected, so you may have to do a bit more preplanning and deciding what physical inputs to use in order to maximize the erffectiveness of the mixer physical I/O patching.

With an existing venue the available conduit and cabling paths can often be a major factor in any system input changes or expansion and/or the use of digital snakes. A digital snake can grealy reduce the cabling from the stage to the mixer, however you may also have to consider where you locate the digital snake stage box(es), how you get signals to and from those, etc. as the infrastructure that may be existing for an analog system is often quite different than that you might want for a digital snake based system. I bring this up as I have seen situations where a digital snake can provide a significant savings in the audio cable cost but can entail additional conduit/raceway costs, which may or may not be part of the audio system budget.

If they were thinking that a digital console could eliminate some of the speaker system processing then you may also want to look at that in more detail. I tend to avoid that approach but if they do plan on reducing costs by using any of the console processing for the 'fixed' house processing then you might want to look at what processing the mixer supports for the related outputs.

Since the dealer is suggesting the M200i then maybe they can help arrange a demo or get you in touch with the local manufacturer rep who might do so, at least my local RSS rep is always offering that kind of support. And that's one place where the X32 differs from most of the competition, I could probably get a Client a M200i, a PreSonus StudioLive, a Soundcraft Expression, an A&H Qu-16 or GLD or any of a number of mixers to demo but due to how it is distributed and supported, for the X32 I pretty much have to tell them to go to Guitar Center and look at a demo unit there on the floor.

I have read one 'comparison' of the M200i, X32 and StudioLive but it was from someone who had a rather obvious bias, which they admitted, and that was comparing specs and info rather than actual experience with the mixers, so it seems likely to be of rather limited value.
 
And that's one place where the X32 differs from most of the competition, I could probably get a Client a M200i, a PreSonus StudioLive, a Soundcraft Expression, an A&H Qu-16 or GLD or any of a number of mixers to demo but due to how it is distributed and supported, for the X32 I pretty much have to tell them to go to Guitar Center and look at a demo unit there on the floor.

Have you tried picking up the phone or contacting anyone at Behringer/Music Group and asking for a demo??? When I did that a year ago I had a console and a music group rep at my loading dock in a few days. He trained my staff and myself on the console and stuck around for a show that night. They left me with a console for a month. Yes, they are selling this thing as a pro-sumer product BUT they are still supporting it as a professional product.

I'm also not crazy about the idea of going with a digital stagebox only type configuration for this size of an install. It really limits your future console choices. It also limits what you can rent in. Analog will always work. I would much rather see a few extra dollars invested in running the analog snakes and installing a proper patch panel then be shoehorned into a system that I can't do much with if my console craps out. For this size of install I would really look at how much/less an analog solution would cost vs the digital stagebox. I am willing to bet it would be within a grand of each other after install. Your still having to pull the copper and deal with distribution on the stage. The termination would be a bit more, but we are not talking about a 128 channel system.
 
Have you tried picking up the phone or contacting anyone at Behringer/Music Group and asking for a demo???
The issue for me is being a consultant and I tried for years to find the appropriate contact without success. When I visited the Behringer booth at InfoComm one year specifically to meet their new consultant liaison I found that person had apparently been promoted and the position seemingly eliminated before it ever got going. I aksed a Behringer rep that was present how I could arrange demos, get pricing, etc. and all they could offer was that I go to someone like Guitar Center.

As far as support, Midas and Turbosound list direct support contacts right on their web sites and also have local manufacturer reps while Behringer provides only a general consumer support contact and has no manufacturer reps. Even within The MUSIC Group, K-T, Midas and Turbosound seem to employ a more traditional 'pro' market support approach while Behringer and Bugera seem to use more of a MI/consumer oriented approach. That makes sense given the background of those companies but it can have implications when they try to cross markets.

Directly relevant to my situation, what I have found is that where a manufacturers' business model tends to approach everyone outside the manufacturer and distributor as being either a potential reseller or a potential customer, then a party that does not directly buy or sell products has no place. As a result, many MI or consumer market focused manufacturers seem to have problems directly supporting consultants. I think Joe Sanborn and others are doing wht they can to address such issues but the basic business model in place seems to sometimes work against them.
 
Directly relevant to my situation, what I have found is that where a manufacturers' business model tends to approach everyone outside the manufacturer and distributor as being either a potential reseller or a potential customer, then a party that does not directly buy or sell products has no place. As a result, many MI or consumer market focused manufacturers seem to have problems directly supporting consultants. I think Joe Sanborn and others are doing wht they can to address such issues but the basic business model in place seems to sometimes work against them.

Trying to tie this back into the question at hand, try to go get a demo of the M200i, I doubt Roland would be as helpful as Behringer has been as of recently.

@gafftaper: My biggest question would be are they spec'ing it because they are dealers of the M200i, or because they legitimately see it as a good console. I have never used the console in question, but I have used their REAC digital snakes and don't really like their offerings, I didn't find it to be very durable and the control technology is dated when compared to more current digital snakes in the same price point. The lack of integrated head amp control for the stage box at the console is the biggest of dealbreakers for me. The RCS software isn't very user friendly either.

I'd treat their console with skepticism as its not in wide use and customer support may be iffy. Though I have had some really positive experiences on their other offerings (multi-track recorders and audio interfaces).
 
The lack of integrated head amp control for the stage box at the console is the biggest of dealbreakers for me. The RCS software isn't very user friendly either.

Having never touched the console in question but having used its larger version I did have remote pre-amp control. In fact, there is no way on the stage boxes to change the pre-amp. Now, how that stage box patched inside the console was very confusing. It work, but there was some trial and error involved.
 
Having never touched the console in question but having used its larger version I did have remote pre-amp control. In fact, there is no way on the stage boxes to change the pre-amp. Now, how that stage box patched inside the console was very confusing. It work, but there was some trial and error involved.

Well that's good news, last time I used a reac snake we has a cludgy 2U remote and an even worse computer program via RS-232. The support page for the bundled stagerack on the 200i didn't show any other options.
 
Thanks for all the help guys. I've advised my friend to get a demo of the M200i before anything is decided and to focus on use with and without the iPad, ease of operations, speed of tweaking things mid show, and managing inputs from the booth and on stage. Finally, I encouraged him to ask them why they were not suggesting the X32 and to try to get a demo.
 
Trying to tie this back into the question at hand, try to go get a demo of the M200i, I doubt Roland would be as helpful as Behringer has been as of recently.
That depends, my RSS rep meets with me on a regular basis, responds very quickly to any questions and offered to provide a demo unit anytime I want. Similar with my Soundcraft, PreSonus and A&H reps. That's why I like having manufacturer reps, for dealers and consultants they are another source of support and information that can often be more responsive than factory support.

Gaff, I think you'll really benefit from a demo. You might also want to look at scenes and safing, those are areas that can differ significantly on consoles not intended specifically for theatre applications.
 
Dear Guys,

Our level of product support is second-to-none.

I have been with MUSIC Group for many years and manage a team of Product Specialists who are available to help you with any question related to the X32 and any BEHRINGER product-related questions. As Kyle indicated, I sent a Product Specialist out to his venue for a demo and helped train his staff. While this may not always be available due to location, my team is available via phone, email, Skype, etc. We often take calls in the evening and weekends, as we are all engineers ourselves and understand the need for support. In the US, we have 3 dedicated Product Specialists. I am in Los Angeles; John DiNicola is in NYC and Evan Hooton, our House of Worship Product Specialist, is in Colorado Springs, CO. In regards to the X32, we have a dedicated X32 tech in our Las Vegas CARE facility who can also help.

Gafftaper - Please let me know your location and if possible, perhaps we can give you a demo of the X32 series and S16 stage box.

Hit me with a PM, and I can send you my cell as well as my team's contact info. Please let me know if we can answer any questions.

Best Regards,
Joe Sanborn
Manager, Product Support
MUSIC Group
BEHRINGER
 
Dear museav,

I would like to point out that our distributor in the US, Starin, has a NEW team of BEHRINGER reps.
http://starin.biz/marketing/images/BehringerRep-Map-2013.pdf

I hope this helps.
That remains to be seen. In this area some other MUSIC Group companies already have established reps so it is not clear why Starin went with someone different for Behringer. I've been working in this area professionally for almost 30 years and have never heard of the rep selected, which is not real reassuring. Nor is the "@gmail.com" e-mail address and Colorado phone number for the rep supposedly serving the Southeast. I will be interested to see if this does have any positive effect for contractors and consultants.

Added: To Behringer's credit, within a few hours after the above post I received a call from the new Behrinfer rep introducing themselves and subsequently had a good conversation with them. Unfortunately, they confirmed that apparently the only way to currently demo any Behringer products, including a Consultant doing so for a client, is to either directly involve a Behringer dealer in the demonstration or to purchase the product yourself from a dealer.
 
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When I got my M200i the X32 was still rather new. I chose the Roland because the REAC standard allows for use of standard ethernet hardware for fiber connections and connections to computers for recording.
I used it for 2 years with an iPad 1 and found it reasonable to operate in a run and gun mode for different gigs each night. There were a couple of gigs where i had the band saved from the previous year and it saved a lot of time in setting up because I could recall the setup. Then the updates started leaving my iPad1 behind and the X32 got to a better price point.
I bought an X32 producer. I found I was not doing enough digital snake work to need the REAC facilities so the AES50 interface did not get in the way. Using an external router and android tablets made the operation real easy. I now have several X32 rack units, x32 core, M32 desks and X-air units. All running with android tablets or over the network from windows and mac laptops. The Ethernet control is great because we can access a desk over the VPN and make adjustments or consult with an operator who is in another room, sometimes in another state and in some cases in another country.

Now to the reason I found this thread. I have this here M200i that has been sitting in the back storage for a few years. I tried putting it up on Craigslist and Facebook Marketplace and got no nibbles. I figured I might install it in a small theatre to replace an aging MX2004A. I fire it up and update the firmware and load the RCS on a laptop. Then I start remembering how limited this thing is and what a joy it is to use Mixing Station Pro on an android tablet. The iPad 1 is useless because the new software requires a newer version of iOS. I'm not dropping the price of 6 android tablets on a system like this. I was hoping to control the mixer over a network connection from the house, but alas the RCS software only runs over USB. I guess I could VNC the windows controller, but the RCS software is not as friendly as X32 Edit.

If someone reading this has a choice between M200i and X/M32, go for the Behringer/Midas world.

Contact me if you want a really good deal on an M200i. It is going back in the box.
 

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