Safe to go digital on monitor desk?

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After 10 years, several repairs, and a few voodoo dances we have pretty much given up on our Crest Monitor X. It has solo bus problems and has lost routing on channels in the past. Our processing for the rig is all DBX 480's with a 480R. I have never liked that system, would have preferred just a rack of DN360's.

So, with that we are currently at an impasse. We used to say no digital because half the riders we got say that. Recently it has seemed that requirement has disappeared. There is also the issue that very few companies are actually making a decent large format analog monitor console. So, right now we are wrestling with the idea of going digital in monitor world. Have we finally turned the corner where people will take a digital desk? I know no one is carrying analog anymore... but for the people that have to fill riders are we in the same boat?

We are looking at going with either an M7 or an AVID console. Digico is way our of our budget.
 
All the gigs I've worked or seen the riders don't have any stips on digital boards. So i would say digital is fine. Personaly looking to pick up an X32 for the mid sized band gigs.
 
Don't write off Digico. We had a Digico FOH+Monitor system priced out as well as a Digidesign package and a Yamaha package. Digico came in at about the same price as everyone else plus or minus a few thousand dollars.

I forget exactly which frames we priced out, but both the TD and I anticipated the Digico solution coming in at 2x what the Yamaha and Avid solutions would be. We were shocked when it came in a very competitive price.

Practically a steal in my opinion considering how advanced the Digico consoles are when compared to the prehistoric M7 technology. At the time we had them priced out, Yamaha had not yet announced their new lineup of consoles. I don't know how pricing between the old line and new line compares but I bet pricing on a helps close the gap between a 48-ch Yamaha CL1 and the Digico equivalent.
 
Ramsa S840.
 
I'd go the cl series over the m7, simply because for roughly the same price, you get much more flexibility. For example, you could move the console round without moving the amps. Or put the amps out of the way. Either situation 2 lines of cat5 replace a core.
 
We moved to Digico SD7's (FOH and Monitors) a year ago and I know the audio guys have been very happy. I think we've seen one rental that had a rider with no digital, but the rider was old with the actual engineers now prefering digital. A digital monitor desk is a great tool when you have multiple bands, as you can save the entire setup for instant recall. Big time saver for the deck audio guys.
 
I think that digital monitor desks are now well accepted. The M7CL is a favorite of many simply because you do not have to deal with layers. The DiGiCo consoles are very nice and might be a good choice if your users are familiar with them but the general view seems to be that people are much more likely to have expeience with a LS9, M7CL, Venue, etc. than with a DiGiCo and the DiGiCo consoles are not the most inutitive to use if you are used to other mixers.

Gerard, you realize that the M7CL-ES and or M7CL with one or more Dante cards offers much the same functionality in terms of CAT connectivity? So might an iLive, iLive-T or several other consoles. In fact, there was a demo at the recent Yamaha Audioversity where they had a M7CL-ES with one of the Yamaha EtherSound interfaces and a Dante card along with a CL5 with an EtherSound card and Yamaha Dante interface interconnected such that any input on any interface or console was available on both the CL5 and the M7CL via the Dante network and/or the EtherSound network. Auvitran, the folks behind EtherSound, were also showing a modular device for which cards are being developed to allow a number of different digital audio formats included several networked audio formats to integrate with one another.

There was also a presentation where Audinate (Dante), Auvitran (EtherSound), Aviom (A-Net16 and A-Net64), Optocore and Reidel (Rocknet) all presented their digital audio network solutions. Conspicuously missing was Cirrus Logic (Cobranet), but it was interesting to see how some developers focused purely on their products while others took shots at their competitors. And Yamaha made it very clear that they are no longer interested in pursuing their own proprietary digital audio network and are instead partnering with digital audio network companies such as those that were present.

Talking to several people, the general consensus seemed to be that Dante is perceived as having a big advantage in being AVB compliant. EtherSound is not AVB compliant but being Layer 2 could supposedly be made AVB compliant. Layer 3 based Roland REAC, QSC Q-LAN, Wheatstone WheatNet-IP and others could probably be AVB compliant but are currently all proprietary to one manufacturer and that does not seem likely to change. And Layer 1 based Aviom A-Net, AES50 (used by the new Behringer digital audio products) and Rocknet would not easily be AVB friendly. Reidel has joined the AVnu Alliance and is looking at AVB but I believe that is more in the context of their MediorNet products than the Rocknet products.

Added: Just noticed this, http://soundforums.net/junior-varsity/5007-h-gld-monitor-board-gig-review.html, and thought it might be relevant.
 
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Most of the riders I am seeing over the past few years are calling for PM5D's or Avid's. Obviously the 5D is out of the budget range. The SC48 seems like it might be more future proof than the M7 with the new CL boards out there. What are your long term plans for when you have to replace your Midas at FOH? I would figure that into my plan as well, in case you have to worry about stage box compatibility, or other such things down the road. The M7 is more user friendly, in my opinion, for users who are unfamiliar with it compared to the Avid. It sounds like that might play into your consideration as well. In your venue, do you see more groups coming through with their own engineers, or do you provide a house monitor engineer? As IEM's grow in popularity, do you think you will need to be able to support plug ins that an engineer might carry with them?

~Dave
 
Most of the riders I am seeing over the past few years are calling for PM5D's or Avid's. Obviously the 5D is out of the budget range. The SC48 seems like it might be more future proof than the M7 with the new CL boards out there. What are your long term plans for when you have to replace your Midas at FOH? I would figure that into my plan as well, in case you have to worry about stage box compatibility, or other such things down the road. The M7 is more user friendly, in my opinion, for users who are unfamiliar with it compared to the Avid. It sounds like that might play into your consideration as well. In your venue, do you see more groups coming through with their own engineers, or do you provide a house monitor engineer? As IEM's grow in popularity, do you think you will need to be able to support plug ins that an engineer might carry with them?

~Dave

One of the reasons the Digico is out is that besides the price for an SD7, it is not a console I want to support for guest engineers. Added to that, none of my guys have used one and I really don't want to tack on the cost of training. Everyone has used the Avid stuff and the M7. Every road engineer out there has touched both of these consoles as well. When my guys have to play system tech, I don't want to have to have them hand hold the entire show.

I am also not concerned with stage box compatibility. We will never go with a digital snake to FOH. We commonly have to tie in guest consoles at monitors and FOH so we'll be keeping our copper for the long term.

As far as engineers go, usually when it is our console its our guy on it in monitor world. FOH is usually a road engineer. With the current state of touring where everything has to fit in a trailer that is pulled behind a bus we are starting to see less and less groups carry a monitor rig. Hell, many guys now are just carrying an FOH console & mics... no snake/split/subsnakes. With that, our gear is getting ridden harder than ever.

Being able to recall settings for an opener/headliner would be nice, but because FOH is staying analog that is going to be a limiting factor no matter what.
 
/totally off-topic

Has anyone ever seen a Digico SD7 in (sleep/screensaver/standby?) mode? I nearly fell out of the spot basket when I saw that. Totally worth the price just for that "feature." I wonder, can it be disabled (rather distracting when the console is in the audience) ? Anyone have a video of that which to I am referring?
 
One of the reasons the Digico is out is that besides the price for an SD7, it is not a console I want to support for guest engineers. Added to that, none of my guys have used one and I really don't want to tack on the cost of training. Everyone has used the Avid stuff and the M7. Every road engineer out there has touched both of these consoles as well. When my guys have to play system tech, I don't want to have to have them hand hold the entire show.

I am also not concerned with stage box compatibility. We will never go with a digital snake to FOH. We commonly have to tie in guest consoles at monitors and FOH so we'll be keeping our copper for the long term.

As far as engineers go, usually when it is our console its our guy on it in monitor world. FOH is usually a road engineer. With the current state of touring where everything has to fit in a trailer that is pulled behind a bus we are starting to see less and less groups carry a monitor rig. Hell, many guys now are just carrying an FOH console & mics... no snake/split/subsnakes. With that, our gear is getting ridden harder than ever.

Being able to recall settings for an opener/headliner would be nice, but because FOH is staying analog that is going to be a limiting factor no matter what.

I started a long response in defense of the Digico, but actually haven't a clue why our A1 chose it. Thus can only say that you're 3rd reason defeats the 1st, in that if it's house guys on the monitor desk (which is typical), who cares what the road guys ask for. I do know that our guys liked the sound of the Digico over other desks they had used and listened to, so maybe your guys should add that to the criteria.
 
I started a long response in defense of the Digico, but actually haven't a clue why our A1 chose it. Thus can only say that you're 3rd reason defeats the 1st, in that if it's house guys on the monitor desk (which is typical), who cares what the road guys ask for. I do know that our guys liked the sound of the Digico over other desks they had used and listened to, so maybe your guys should add that to the criteria.

It is not always the case that a house guy is on monitors. Its happening more recently, but at least a third of shows have a road engineer on monitors and they are on our rig. The other issue I have is we have a rotating pool of A2's. I barely have enough work to keep one audio guy around. So, with that it I have 4 guys that can swing in behind monitors when I need it. I don't want to have knowing Digico to be the deciding factor on bringing a guy in. Everyone knows Yamaha. Most people know Avid.

Finally, I don't want to have a better console at monitors than I do FOH. I don't want to get into a situation where someone wants us to flip our FOH and monitor consoles.

I do agree though that the digico sound blows the other options out of the water... and that is why you have them.
 
If budget allows, it's useful to get 2, this way the A1s and 2's can switch as needed, but not likely the facility will swing for the money. We got ours on a City Arts Council grant, as well as a lot of supporting gear. Probably $200,000 for Audio alone. From observing, the leaning curve is not that steep and we have 6 guys, including the head that run the desks and learned it all this year. We don't typically have a visiting monitor engineer, but 1/3 of the events will have a house guy, but I've not seen too many issues either. Possibly there are more Digico's down this way for rental, can't say though.

But does it save time ?. Oh Yeah. Plus a ton of extra processing gear is now gone, it's all in the desk, and that makes it all easier to learn as well. Not to mention the entire monitor land setup is smaller and cleaner, set's up/strikes faster as well. I don't see any negatives to the system and it went in reasonbly smooth and has been very reliable with no crashes.
 
The SC48 seems like it might be more future proof than the M7 with the new CL boards out there.
The CL uses virtually the same Centralogic approach as the M7CL and anyone that is familiar with a M7CL will quickly feel at home, so the CL may actually make the M7more future proof. And Yamaha is commited to mini-YGDAI cards for integrating current and future networked audio protocols so that is probably more future proof than products that rely on a particular, much less any proprietary, digital audio network.

I'm not sure why but I'm also a little uncertain about the future of Avid audio consoles. Several consecutive years of corporate layoffs and restructuring is not reassuring. And whiel the recent sale of Avid's consumer products may a good thing in that regards, could a continued narrowing of Avid's focus potentially affect the audio console products? Great products and still very popular but for some reason I just can't shake the feeling that Avid's focus for the future may be elsewhere.
 
If you're going to go Yamaha I'd get a CL series console, just for future-proofness. The M7 is the "standard", and the CL builds upon it. Plus if you need a better FOH desk the CL has more DCA's and more functionality/routability overall.

If you go the Avid route, go with the Venue. Like TK2K said, the SC48 is fairly limiting even if it is slightly analogous to the M7. Layers = suck.
 
I'm not sure why but I'm also a little uncertain about the future of Avid audio consoles. Several consecutive years of corporate layoffs and restructuring is not reassuring. And whiel the recent sale of Avid's consumer products may a good thing in that regards, could a continued narrowing of Avid's focus potentially affect the audio console products? Great products and still very popular but for some reason I just can't shake the feeling that Avid's focus for the future may be elsewhere.

I can tell you for 100% certainty that in the near future you will not feel this way.


In terms of the profile, I don't mind the layers I mind layers for dynamics. That's why I mix on an ilive with everything accessible all the time
 
Other than the stated advantages of the M7 and CL there's the ability (in theory, anyway) to convert PM5D and LS9 files to work in the M7 and CL.

On paper, I like a lot of the features of the Digico units, but I cannot comment on how friendly they are to one who's mixing monitors on them.
 
If you're going to go Yamaha I'd get a CL series console, just for future-proofness. The M7 is the "standard", and the CL builds upon it. Plus if you need a better FOH desk the CL has more DCA's and more functionality/routability overall.

If you go the Avid route, go with the Venue. Like TK2K said, the SC48 is fairly limiting even if it is slightly analogous to the M7. Layers = suck.
If layers suck then wouldn't that favor the M7CL over the CL?


I find the 'future proof' aspect interesting for digital consoles. Like computers, while software and firmware development and support affect the practical lifetime, so does the underlying physical technology. And also just like with computers, they seem to be seen as having ever shorter useful lifetimes before being considered technically obsolete. However, there is a difference from computersin aspects such as market penetration and tech riders. Many people would probably have no problem accepting a Yamaha CL today but it will probably be some time before most of those people have show files for one and before it appears in tech riders. Conversely, if the LS9, M7CL, PM5D or Venue were discontinued today people would still be routinely encountering them for years, there would still be a large community of people with show files for them, and they would likely still appear in tech riders for some time.

There is also the potential impact of government regulatory changes. Complying with the mandatory requirement for OBD-II led to then end of production for several cars where the sales numbers did not justify the related costs for compliance. And more directly, I think many people underestimate the impact RoHS had on electronics. Talking to manufacturers, it was simply not economically viable for manufacturers to make some products RoHS compliant or to obtain RoHS compliant components, which in turn affected the lifetime of the products. Who knows what future regulations could affect current or new products?

A somewhat similar issue can also apply to software, not necessarily the console software but any supporting software. As operating systems come and go manufacturers must decide whether it is worth investing the effort to verify and possibly adapt their software for new operating systems or to continue to support and develop it for older operating systems. I've been through the experience of having to search for a laptop running an obsolete OS in order to work with a brand new digital mixer, a factor that made that nice new product much less "future proof" unless the manufacturer decided to eventually make their software and firmware compaitble with new operating systems. How do the manufacturers balance continuing to support and develop software for older operating systems and products that are already out there with also continuing to develop software for newer operating systems and products?

Then there are related technology advances. If a new networked audio or digital audio format becomes popular, can an existing product support those and what is involved in doing so? I think AVB is showing this as you have some older consoles that could be readily adapted to support AVB while you also have some newer consoles that would require external devices to convert AVB, or any other new signals, to a format the console supports.

Also relevant, how will manufacturers prepare for and support end-of-life products? Does end of production mean end of support and/or development? What about parts stock and service? These seem critical factors in determining the potential practical life after production ceases and not all manufacturers may apply the same approach to them. And I don't think we know what to expect from some manufacturers.

And when does a mixer cease being useful? I've used analog mixers in some clubs and community theaters that were long past their useful life for their original applications but that still had usefulness in those other applications. Will a LS9, SC48, iLive-T, StudioLive, M-480, etc. potentially have such a second and possibly third life? Or will digital mixers become more like computers where there is no market for used equipment that is more than a couple of years old?

The point is really that simply being newer does not necessarily relate to being more "future proof" and "future proofing" for digital consoles seems a potentially complex issue that could involve factors both within and outside of a manufacturer's control as well as hardware, software and practical factors.

I can tell you for 100% certainty that in the near future you will not feel this way.
I hope so but only time will tell and it will take some time.
 

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