Safe to go digital on monitor desk?

Take a look at the Soundcraft Vi series and the Midas Pro2. The Soundcraft is a dream to use and nobody is going to turn their nose up at it. It's also pretty easy to get acquainted with on short notice. The Midas is a small (tiny) footprint model at a lower price point but it's currently out doing monitor duty on a huge tour or two.
 
Take a look at the Soundcraft Vi series and the Midas Pro2. The Soundcraft is a dream to use and nobody is going to turn their nose up at it. It's also pretty easy to get acquainted with on short notice. The Midas is a small (tiny) footprint model at a lower price point but it's currently out doing monitor duty on a huge tour or two.

+1 to this. My local roadhouse just bought the vi4 for FoH and a vi2 for backstage. They absolutely love it. And tours must not mind it, as almost all touring shows will use it in conjunction with their system.
 
+1 to this. My local roadhouse just bought the vi4 for FoH and a vi2 for backstage. They absolutely love it. And tours must not mind it, as almost all touring shows will use it in conjunction with their system.



The pro2 scares me still. The fault tolerance went down by a factor of 10 when Music Group bought Midas. Long story short, it'a first generation console from a new company, and personlly I'd wait a bit on it. Also it's very layer heavy but it doesn't have real layers, it's got 'scrolls' where you can't jump from 2 to 4 without going through 3.

Also maybe their digitals are different, but the soundcraft analogue boards are some of my least favorite to use.
 
Also maybe their digitals are different, but the soundcraft analogue boards are some of my least favorite to use.

I would agree with that, I always liked the big A&H desks or a Midas when I could be so lucky. I'll tell you though that six years ago when I saw the Vi6 when it was rolled out, it was the first digital desk that made sense to me. Everything is right there. It takes so little time to get comfortable on one and not much more time to get really fast on it.
 
Has anyone here actually touched a CL yet? Just got some rough numbers on one, they come in about the same price as a used 5D...
 
Has anyone here actually touched a CL yet? Just got some rough numbers on one, they come in about the same price as a used 5D...
Had a chance to play with one a little bit and get a very abbreviated version of the planned training just last week. If you've ever used an M7CL you'll probably be able to jump right on a CL. If you've used an M7CL and a PM5D you'll probably see it as an M7CL UI with some of the features of a PM5D added, for example gain compensation for multiple console systems.

As I understand it through rumors and hearsay, Yamaha was working on a new flagship digital console but decided it might not be the best time economically to introduce it. So they took some of that development along with the now common Centralogic interface and put them into a console whose price point made it a more financially viable product in the current economy.
 
Has anyone here actually touched a CL yet? Just got some rough numbers on one, they come in about the same price as a used 5D...
The CL has its pluses and minuses. It doesn't have many busses as I'd like, and I find the configuration of the remote io very one size fits all, but inflexible.

The software is still very new and a lot of the features are 4/5ths baked (like scene management)

Also,my personal opinion is that gain compensation is highly overrated, and no substitute for good communication between monitors and foh

That being said everyone knows how to use yamaha. I don't think you'll ever find an engineer who says its their first choice, but I also don't think you'll ever meet an engineer disappointed to find one at a venue
 
The CL has its pluses and minuses. It doesn't have many busses as I'd like, and I find the configuration of the remote io very one size fits all, but inflexible.
I think an often overlooked factor for mix buses is not just the number of buses but also how they can be used. For example, can you assign channel direct outputs and inserts directly to physical outputs or do you have to use a mix bus? What signals are available to matrix buses? And are any mix buses dedicated pre-fade, dedicated post-fade or dedicated internal EFX sends?

With the Rio3224D and Rio1608D the CL series remote I/O is at least two sizes fits all and that approach seems fairly common for digital consoles in that price range, I think it may be a case of where you can offer a limited number of models that will work for the vast majority of situations more effectively than offering a multitude of options or a modular approach. I am surprised that the CL remote I/O boxes do not have a mini-YGDAI slot, there may be a reason that is not practical and I am guessing it may ba a cost factor to support slots in both the console and the remote I/O.

Also,my personal opinion is that gain compensation is highly overrated, and no substitute for good communication between monitors and foh
While I agree that gain compensation may not be the best solution in many applications, I also don't think that communication between two operators is necessarily a practical solution either and I generally prefer to physically split the inputs when possible.

That being said everyone knows how to use yamaha. I don't think you'll ever find an engineer who says its their first choice, but I also don't think you'll ever meet an engineer disappointed to find one at a venue
I think a PM1D or PM5D might be a first choice for some, it remains to be seen if the CL falls more on that side or the LS9/M7CL side.
 
I'm a big Soundcraft fan, personally. We now have a VI1, 2 SI Compact 32's, and an SI Compact 16. That's in addition to the M7CL-es and LS9-32. After using the Soundcrafts the sound alone is heaps better than the Yamahas. Not used a CL yet, but would like to check one out.
 
We are looking at going with either an M7 or an AVID console. Digico is way our of our budget.
Have been following some other discussions and speaking with some people, there are now a number of good digital console options in the $20,000 to $30,000, and even the $20k to $25k, range. If you're thinking an SC48 then I believe the DiGiCo SD9 and Midas Pro2 are in the same range, although you'd have to confirm the I/O meets your needs. And then you have some, such as the A&H GLD80, that may be perfectly acceptable for many applications available for well under $20k.

The other thing that came out of the discussions was that there can be a factor of what experienced techs like perhaps differing from what best serves less experienced techs. A specific example was someone pointing out the variable low and high pass filters on the Midas Pro2 where you can select frequency and slope/order for both filters. That's a great tool for someone who knows how to effectively apply it, but for those who don't it's more settings they have to think about, more places to perhaps pick the wrong settings, etc. and such people may be better off with a simple fixed high pass filter in/out button. What is perceived as an advantage by one person may be perceived as a disadvantage by another and vice versa. The M7CL is also a good example of this as well as I see some people commenting on how it has been obsoleted by newer technology and products, but it is the only digital mixer that lets you deal with that many channels without using layers and to some that alone offsets everything else. It's all what matters to you. Unfortunately, you are facing the same challenges I always face, that it is not for you and your normal use, it is for a variety of users and uses. That makes it difficult to to assess the value of capabilities and functionalities that may be affected by personal preferences.

One thing I see being a potential factor in a direct replacement for your Monitor X is the mapping of outputs to fader banks. Many digital consoles use 8 fader banks and some of the consoles in the $20k to $30k price range have a limited number of faders. You have 12 monitor plus 4 matrix and 2 main mixes so if you have to map in banks, for example all inputs or all outputs to a bank, that could be interesting. Another factor may be that your existing console has integrated hardwire splits on the inputs. If that is how you tie in the monitor mixer then you'd also have to factor in adding dedicated splits since I don't know of any consoles in that price range that have physical splits or sufficient outputs for virtual splits.
 
Have been following some other discussions and speaking with some people, there are now a number of good digital console options in the $20,000 to $30,000, and even the $20k to $25k, range. If you're thinking an SC48 then I believe the DiGiCo SD9 and Midas Pro2 are in the same range, although you'd have to confirm the I/O meets your needs. And then you have some, such as the A&H GLD80, that may be perfectly acceptable for many applications available for well under $20k.

We just spent $20k on an Allen and Heath iLive idr48+t112+flight cases, cables, etc.
I was getting pretty universal quotes of
sc48 ~19500
sc48 remote ~23500
Pro2 ~21000
M7 ~18000

So honestly theres a huge amount in that price range.

Personally, the SD9 and Pro2 were disappointing based on their larger siblings (in terms of usability at least, functionality was as expected) which is why we went with an iLive.
 
The Women of Faith "tour" is currently using a Yamaha CL5 for FoH and for monitor world, but I'll try and find out.
 
Ya, but they have the lord on their side to make sure things go OK. No so much for woodstock era rockers and Austin hipster groups.

Well, they might have had that, but they didn't have Yamaha tech support, who told them that they didn't even have a console to help troubleshoot with yet.

The tech I talked to may come join, and share his opinions. But he basically said the biggest complaints he had were software based, and could be fixed with firmware updates later on. That some functions were odd, but over all, it was a classic Yamaha digital. Almost too identical to the M7CL, but anyone who used the M7 could probably walk up to one, and learn it fairly quickly.
 
Well, they might have had that, but they didn't have Yamaha tech support, who told them that they didn't even have a console to help troubleshoot with yet.

The tech I talked to may come join, and share his opinions. But he basically said the biggest complaints he had were software based, and could be fixed with firmware updates later on. That some functions were odd, but over all, it was a classic Yamaha digital. Almost too identical to the M7CL, but anyone who used the M7 could probably walk up to one, and learn it fairly quickly.

Having poked one at a tech demo, I was left with basically the same impression. I'm not really sure what the 'point' of the console is. At this point the software isn't fully baked (most of the cool features are 'summer 2012' which is almost over). Yes, it's got 24 mix busses (up from 16) and 16 DCAs (up from 8) but the effects rack is still behind the industry, and the signal delay is still 2.5ms (same as m7) Even stranger, the RIO and HA boxes are all compatible the M7 and 5D with an add on card...

As an LS9 replacement It's thrilling, but at 15k for the CL1 (used M7 territory) , 20 for the CL3 (sc48 territory) and 27 (3k below used pm5d territory) for the CL5, I really can't see there being much of a market for this thing.... esp seeing all those prices are without any of the remote units.
 
Has anyone here actually touched a CL yet? Just got some rough numbers on one, they come in about the same price as a used 5D...

Got one coming into the shop next week for a demo. Any specific questions anyone wants me to ask or features they want me to poke at?
 
Having poked one at a tech demo, I was left with basically the same impression. I'm not really sure what the 'point' of the console is. At this point the software isn't fully baked (most of the cool features are 'summer 2012' which is almost over). Yes, it's got 24 mix busses (up from 16) and 16 DCAs (up from 8) but the effects rack is still behind the industry, and the signal delay is still 2.5ms (same as m7) Even stranger, the RIO and HA boxes are all compatible the M7 and 5D with an add on card...

As an LS9 replacement It's thrilling, but at 15k for the CL1 (used M7 territory) , 20 for the CL3 (sc48 territory) and 27 (3k below used pm5d territory) for the CL5, I really can't see there being much of a market for this thing.... esp seeing all those prices are without any of the remote units.
The CL series is apparently intended to slot between the M7CL and PM5D with an updated version of the now common Centralogic interface and integrated stage box support via a non-proprietary audio network.

Yes, Summer 2012 is almost over, which could be looked at as meaning the updated firmware and software should soon be available. Also consider that while the CL5 and Rio3224-D were released earlier this year, the CL1, CL3 and Rio1608-D were always set for a late Summer release thus it makes some sense that the final 'production' version of the software and firmware would also be released at that time.

The analog input to analog output latency is "less than 2.5ms", which is also the same as the PM5D and seems to compare to the "typical" 2.0ms of the DiGiCo SD9 and the 2.3ms of the Venue SC48. If you want much lower latency you probably need to move up to 96kHz sampling, which has its own tradeoffs including in terms of any digital networking.

With the right cards the CL series are also compatible with the AD8HR and the SB168-ES, but I see that compatibility across the line as a potential advantage.

You seem to be mixing street and list prices in the comparison. You also seem to compare prices for new and used equipment, which is not always applicable, for example used gear is usually not an accepted or viable option in most of my work. I personally find that the only way to make accurate cost comparisons is for a specific application, otherwise one or two additional or fewer inputs or outputs, multitrack recording and playback, particular digital audio network support and so on can often make a significant difference in the resulting costs for different consoles.


I find digital console comparisons interesting since they are so easily affected by the reference application(s) and personal preferences. And people often seem to focus on factors that may not not relevant to every application or that won't or shouldn't matter. I remember a discussion where one person suggested everyone avoid a particular brand of consoles because of how the preamps sounded when clipped until somebody pointed out that the goal should be to not clip the preamps in the first place and how well you could avoid clipping them might be more relevant than how they sounded when clipped.

I also think it is great to have more options available. No one analog or digital console is going to be the answer for every application. Factors such as the use, the users, the budget, physical constraints, the rest of the system, the procurement process and so on may all vary and each combination may be best served by a different solution. I think it's nice to have more options so you can better select the 'best fit' solution rather than trying to make one of a more limited selection work.
 

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