Side debate about low budget consoles

[TJCornish]

I think that @MikeJ is right, ETC can't afford to compete in the low end market and keep their great customer service reputation. If they wanted to design for the market where a SmartFade is too pricey, they'd likely have to have the board not be branded ETC and not come with the free tech support that ETC products enjoy.

We will see. ETC is moving down-market with the Colorsource fixtures. Will they do an updated console to drive them?

BTW, I have a bone to pick with ETC's support of the SmartFade. I realize it's an older console, but it is still a current product with new sales. They haven't released a fixture library update in a long time, and SmartSoft doesn't work on Apple El Capitan. It was nice of the easy to access free tech support person to give me that answer so quickly, but in this particular case, I would have preferred a software update to the easy to get "no" answer. ETC needs to either support the product or discontinue it. Console purgatory doesn't become them.

 

[RickR]

Here is a magazine review of small consoles. No DJ stuff, several we have discussed and several not.
http://www.churchproduction.com/story/main/lighting-consoles-new-options-for-2016

 

[AsherSB]

Here is a magazine review of small consoles. No DJ stuff, several we have discussed and several not.
http://www.churchproduction.com/story/main/lighting-consoles-new-options-for-2016

These are all interesting, but a $30,000 Vista or a $50,000+ MA aren't even on the radar for those looking at small consoles.

 

[MikeJ]

There are lots of bands that tour with lighting rigs. Some are DJ-level, and the Elation ShowDesigner series has a following in those circles. I would argue that having a lighting controller programmed for your show can be even more critical than an audio console with your settings - it's a lot faster to set some levels on a mixer than recreate all of your lighting looks assuming you're trying to do something more specific than generic blinking of stuff.


There are still audio consoles that are in the high 5-figure range; what has changed is that a "low-end" console like the A&H GLD series can do a 48x24 show for $5K with pretty much any bell or whistle you want. The big-boy desks are still there for those that want/need them, but the lower-end desks are absolutely functional, and a joy to use.

I haven't found a comparable <$5K lighting desk that doesn't require a PC and doesn't have UI limitations - small screen, too few faders, etc. This is what I'm expecting to change.

You have a point about the greater tech support demands of products that are targeted for a larger pool of users, however much of the rest of what you state isn't generally true. Music Group - AKA Behringer - bought Midas and Turbosound, not the other way around. Harman Group (JBL, Harmon Kardon, lots of consumer brands) bought Martin. JBL's JRX, Eon, PRX, and SRX series products float the company so they can make Vertec and VTX. Volkswagen owns Porshce, not the other way around, etc. As you mentioned, High End is now selling some products through Elation.

When you consider the cost of R&D, small client bases are a real problem, and lots of boutique companies struggle to get by and end up being gobbled up by the mass market players.

I think your experience and perception of the market must be different than mine.

Think of it this way, 20% of the lighting market has 80% of the money to spend, this this is why MA is the most expensive and most dominant console in the industry, outside of theater. Professionals are willing to pay a premium for the product they want/need, so although its a "small client base" it a base of real clients, not a bunch of community theaters, bar bands and weekend warriors, who don't have any money or influence on other customers in the market. The latter may be 80% of the people but there is no money to be made there.

Many lighting companies ARE getting into lower end products and appealing to a larger market; take the Martin Rush line for example.
On the other hand Chauvet is trying to grow in the PROFESSIONAL market, they have completely separated their DJ line from the Pro line. Different websites, different people, different market.

Will be see better Lighting control for less? Probably, but the market is much smaller than audio.

What giant umbrella company owns another does not change the market or profit margins of a product line. If you think that all highend pro audio companies survive because the parent corporation pedals tons of garbage at guitar center, than please find me anything by L'Acoustics, Meyer, D&B, or NEXO at your local store.

Just because you and most others cannot afford a product does not make it "boutique," In fact it may be the industry standard.

What do you thing General Electrics main source of income is? Toasters? Coffee makers? Dishwashers? NO...its Aviation. "Boutique" fighter jet engines and such, with a tiny, limited market of customers. How many dryers do you think they need to sell to equal the profit of one jet engine?


Oh, and the idea that a lighting console and LD would be more important to a band than a monitor desk and IEMs is absurd. Out of all of the bands you have ever heard of I can think of this happening about one time, and in that case no console, just an LD.

 

[derekleffew]

What do you think General Electrics main source of income is? Toasters? Coffee makers? Dishwashers? NO...its Aviation. "Boutique" fighter jet engines and such, with a tiny, limited market of customers. How many dryers do you think they need to sell to equal the profit of one jet engine?

Perhaps not the best example...
GE To Sell Appliances Division To Chinese Company

 

[MikeJ]

Perhaps not the best example...
GE To Sell Appliances Division To Chinese Company

Thats exactly my point, they want to get rid of the high volume/low profit divisions.

 

[TJCornish]

I think your experience and perception of the market must be different than mine.

...

What giant umbrella company owns another does not change the market or profit margins of a product line. If you think that all highend pro audio companies survive because the parent corporation pedals tons of garbage at guitar center, than please find me anything by L'Acoustics, Meyer, D&B, or NEXO at your local store.

...

Oh, and the idea that a lighting console and LD would be more important to a band than a monitor desk and IEMs is absurd. Out of all of the bands you have ever heard of I can think of this happening about one time, and in that case no console, just an LD.

We will have to agree to disagree. Mackie bought EAW, and that didn't happen because EAW made more money than Mackie did.

Anyway, I appreciate your thoughts. Here's to hoping that both of us get the console we want for the price we want to pay.

 

[BillConnerFASTC]

Consider a Q-file in 1970s was in the $50,000 range as I recall - $150,000 today - and I'd say they had come down.

 

[JChenault]

Consider a Q-file in 1970s was in the $50,000 range as I recall - $150,000 today - and I'd say they had come down.

My memory (for the first ones in the US) was more like 100,000.

 

[BillConnerFASTC]

Could be - which with inflation would be $300,000. Could be the list versus net values as well.

 

[AsherSB]

I think your experience and perception of the market must be different than mine.

Think of it this way, 20% of the lighting market has 80% of the money to spend, this this is why MA is the most expensive and most dominant console in the industry, outside of theater. Professionals are willing to pay a premium for the product they want/need, so although its a "small client base" it a base of real clients, not a bunch of community theaters, bar bands and weekend warriors, who don't have any money or influence on other customers in the market. The latter may be 80% of the people but there is no money to be made

With this logic why would Apple produce any products other then the Mac Pro and MacBook Pro? There is without doubt a large and profitable market for a small and cheap consoles, but only if a large lighting company can learn to work in a consumer market. As was mentioned before, companies like soundcraft and Allen and Heath have been able to do very well in the consumer market and maintained their positions in the professional market. The same is quite possible in the lighting industry, we just need someone brave enough to do it.

On another note I still see way more Hogs then MAs in corporate work.

 

[MikeJ]

I get it, apple makes the macbook AIR, and the Mac Mini, and a bunch of phones. But the pricing on those products is still a premium compared to other competitors. Apple still only targets a small market with computers; people who are happy to spend extra money on a more closed system that "just works." Its a smaller, but captive market. Apple has enough LIQUID capital to buy its top PC competitor DELL,(maybe a few times over) but does not seem to be worried about Dell selling WAY more low end PCs to the low end of the market.

The other point of companies Like Soundcraft and Allan and Heath doing well in the consumer market is fine, but the reality is that they are not considered at all in the high end pro market. When you get above the mid-level church market, they drop off the radar. Anywhere Riders are considered, those companies are low on the list.

Anyway, probably not worth arguing anymore. I would love to see some full features/low cost lighting solutions, and they are out there, but probably not at the cost to feature ratio people want. Martin M-PC line is probably the best bang for the buck right now.

 

[RickR]

These are all interesting, but a $30,000 Vista or a $50,000+ MA aren't even on the radar for those looking at small consoles.

Highest starting price is $7294 for a Leprecon, for MA it's $3125, for Vista $1395.

 

[JChenault]

My memory (for the first ones in the US) was more like 100,000.

So after some more research. ( IE I contacted Joel Rubin) I have some better prices for Kliegl products in the early days.

A 'Large' 5 scene preset would be somewhere around 50-60K ( Thiis would be in the 60's to early 70's)
The first Q-Files imported were 80 - 100K ( late 60's to mid 70's) NOTE that the Q-File was not a computer console. It was a memory console. It used lots of logic boards, but there was no central processing unit.
The Performance (Kliegl's first computer console ) around 25K ( Mid 70's to late 70's - early 80's)
The Performer ( Kliegl's second computer console ) 15K ( Early 80's )

 

[AsherSB]

Highest starting price is $7294 for a Leprecon, for MA it's $3125, for Vista $1395.

I know that they are cheaper as pc versions, but I was referring to the price of a full console. My point was that these aren't options for small venues because expansion beyond a basic dmx dongle is expensive. A MA PC wing can be as much as $8,500 and if you want more then a few faders and a quarter universe you're looking at the S1 for $5,500.

 

[Pie4Weebl]

For my company I looked at the various options for control about a year ago. I landed on the Avo Quartz. A real, full body console, 4 universes, artnet up 16, 10 playbacks and 20 assignable buttons, for about the same price an MA wing with computer and pellican. I've been very happy with it and it does everything I need for my clients.

But, for the cheaper clients and for anyone looking for physical control at the absolute cheapest price possible (and not some midi BS) the Martin M-Touch is my favorite. Reasonably powerful software, easy to learn and only $500.

I'd love to see MA release a real ultralite 2 size console, in the frame of the series 1. For people who expect that, or a ion based console for under $5,000, you're just being greedy and entitled.

 

[MNicolai]

I don't think ETC would put R&D, marketing, and tech support services into releasing a new console at a sub $3500 price point unless they could differentiate substantially from existing products without making Element irrelevant. They won't want to compete with their own product line, and they won't want to do something for the sake of people wanting them to offer a product in an already saturated market. I think that's why it was so long before ETC released a fresnel. They didn't want to do it just because it would round out their product line. If they were going to do it, it was going to be because they had a more innovative solution to offer.

It's like every time another loudspeaker manufacturer releases a line array. The market for line array systems is 500% saturated with options and the only way to stand out is to offer product features someone else can't, or to offer the highest quality product any manufacturer can at the price point. Simply have an okay-sounding speaker for the price isn't going to get any traction in that market.

Another consideration is that offering a console at such a low price point doesn't help sell systems. When a Gio gets spec'd in a new theater, it's probably getting paired with Net3 distribution, Sensor dimming, ETC power distribution, ETC architectural controls, maybe ETC LED fixtures, maybe ETC rigging.

When a SmartFade-esque console gets sold, it probably lives on an island as the only ETC product in sight unless there are a few S4 Jr's with it or a Smartbar. If ETC were highly successful in this market, it would end up having little or no influence on their overall sales. That sounds greedy at first glance but remember that it's the kind of profits ETC can bring in currently that allow them to have stellar technical and customer support, product lineups that don't cut corners, and allows them to fund all that R&D so they can keep developing products that no one has created before.

The other thing is that there's an expectations game at play. People generally have high expectations when they see the ETC logo on something -- that is, they have higher expectations of a low-cost ETC product than they do a similarly priced DJ-grade product. If a DJ product at $1500 is difficult to use, requires lots of workarounds, has no flexibility and bupkis customer support, people will get frustrated for a short while, learn to cope, and move on. If a similar $1500 product from ETC has even an inkling of one of those characteristics, people will consider it a black mark on ETC's record and will hold a grudge against them for it.

Also remember that ETC's been a company of people driven to create solutions that turn the entertainment and architectural industries on their heads. I'm not sure you'll find product developers there who dream about making a product for an already saturated market that it would be incredibly difficult to innovate with. That kind of "innovation" isn't innovation at all. It's taking a product like Element and offering it to the world for $1200/pop, and I don't think the whole of ETC's business model can sustain that kind of charitable generosity.

 

[TJCornish]

@Pie4Weebl - The total value of my lighting rig excluding the board is ~$25K. My complaint isn't that there are boards out there that cost $XX,XXX, but that other than wing-based products (and I have an M-Touch on the way), there isn't a self-contained board out there that can drive my rig effectively for busking in the ways I want for less than 30% of the cost of my entire rig. I find that too high, and with the prices of cool fixtures continuing to come down, this problem gets worse, not better. On the audio side, my console cost is closer to 5% of the cost of the rig. Someone will eventually come to fill in this niche. MA will probably not be leading the charge, but more likely Martin, as they're aggressively pursuing this market, or a few other 2nd tier folks like Chamsys.

@MNicolai - I realize I'm posting on a theater-centric forum and ETC is a theater-focused company, but that's not really my world. Other than liking and using S4 lekos, there isn't much ETC offers that I am likely to buy - at least from their current portfolio. My dimmers are Leprecon, my LED wash fixtures are Chauvet, and my profile movers are Vari-lite. If ETC wants to compete in my world I will welcome it, and this would be an expansion of their business into a completely new market for them.

On the support and development issue, I would really like someone to explain to me why virtually everybody has a PC-version of their software that is either free or at a tiny fraction of the cost of their desk, and it's effectively the control surface that costs $XX,XXX. If product development and support were that big of a deal, surely the software would be the expensive part, and not a glorified computer with a touchscreen and a few faders?

I get how business works and that product development and support need to be amortized into the purchase price of the product. I also get that some folks need and are happy to pay for a $60K console, but I have been in the industry long enough to have seen these same arguments break down and the cost of components falls over time. In my opinion, we are at a funny part in the curve where console hardware prices don't make sense in light of the bigger industry. Someone will step in and fix this.

 

[robartsd]

On the support and development issue, I would really like someone to explain to me why virtually everybody has a PC-version of their software that is either free or at a tiny fraction of the cost of their desk, and it's effectively the control surface that costs $XX,XXX. If product development and support were that big of a deal, surely the software would be the expensive part, and not a glorified computer with a touchscreen and a few faders?

In development costs, I'm sure it is the software theat is expensive, not the physical interface; however, charging the customers the big bucks to get a physical interface allows them to differentiate between markets - the lower end settles for the software on a touchscreen computer, but the high end shells out for the physical interface. It also doesn't hurt that production costs for software units are minimal, but hardware unit production is real money. On the support side, it seems telling that the company most renown for support is also the company where actually using the software to run a rig (even without a dedicated physical interface) is fairly expensive. Providing the software cheap, but asking for serious dough for a physical interface is a business model that seems to be working for some companies, but I don't think adding 24/7 phone support or cheap physical interfaces to to software provided at low cost would make a sustaintable business model for any company (I'd be worried that their long term plan is monopolistic domination of the market).

 

[sk8rsdad]

Companies are in the business of making money. Hardware companies are in the business of making hardware that they sell to make money. All other decisions are based on how to maximize the money that is made. There are lots of marketing games that get played to make that happen.

One thing that continues to make me smile is the smartphone app ecosystem. The conversation goes something like this:

Customer: I just dropped big money on this smart device. Please give me a free app so I can get it to do something useful.
Vendor: No. I didn't make any money when you bought your smart thingy. You can buy my app.
Customer: Fine. I will go to some other vendor then.
Vendor: Here's your free app. Now please buy something from me so we can feed the people that made the app.
Customer: No. I already got your free app, which is excellent BTW, and found some cheaper thing that will work with it.
Vendor: Will you buy something from our "Going out of business" sale?
Customer: Nope. I can get it cheaper from the liquidator after you close your doors.

There's really no such thing as a free lunch. Somebody somewhere is getting screwed.