Sound woes

[JLNorthGA]

The perennial problem for the musical. The singers are too soft, the musicians too loud.

We're a community theatre. We take what actors show up for auditions and hope we get reasonable actors (and singers). This production, not so much. The lead is good. She can sing well. So can several of the others. Two of the actors are a bit weak - one has good tone, but can't project and the other swallows his words.

We set up the Clavinova and the two other keyboards so they weren't coming out of the FOH speakers. The sound is coming from four monitor speakers - two in back of the proscenium arch and two pointed towards the stage from the light coves. The actors still complain that they can't hear the music (I'm back stage and on the stage for a bit role and I hear fine).

Anyway - several of the audience members have mentioned that they can't hear some of the singers clearly. Part of that I understand (see above).

When we were using the upright acoustic piano, we didn't have a problem with the actors hearing the music. Now, with the keyboards and monitor speakers they do.

We have problems w/ the acoustics of the auditorium. The back wall is slightly concave and it's focal point is roughly the center of the proscenium arch on the apron. The walls of the auditorium are cinder block. The ceiling slopes down and the seats are terraced up.

My thoughts were to hire an acoustical firm - got an estimate from two firms - definitely beyond our budget.
The echo in the room (particularly if you are in the back) can be annoying. I am certain that the acoustics are responsible for the complaints from the cast and the patrons.

What to do? One thought is to hang sound blankets (we have several in inventory) on the back wall and see if that improves things during a rehearsal. If it does, then we can look into sound panels on the back wall.

Any other thoughts? The ceilings are vinyl covered ceiling tile.

 

[jkowtko]

Sounds like you've got a few different things going on.

1. I would first check out the house acoustics situation. Play some of your favorite music through FOH only, see how it sounds in every location in the house. Hanging blankets should help. Also having a full audience will help a lot. Those speakers hanging up there don't look great -- if they have poor equalization that may be an issue. You have no center or down fills either, those would also help audience members to hear more clearly.

2. Then add the rear-facing proscenium monitor speakers that the cast will hear. play the house music through that as well, make sure it sounds loud and clear backstage, and doesn't mess up the sound in the audience.

3. Then, I would suggest that you don't have sound coming from different places ... that is disorienting. You mention two sets of speakers for backstage monitors ... I would just have the rear-facing proscenium speakers and nothing else.

4. Finally, if you have actors with weak voices, it would be better to use lavs and tape the mic along their cheek and get the mic element close to the mouth. It will look ugly, but you will be able to hear them. For the actors who are projecting well you can use forehead mounts.

Unfortunately without being there it's hard to tell if there aren't other issues. Again I'm not thrilled with the look of those FOH speakers.

If you pay a sound design firm to check out the place they will probably not do any better than the suggestions you will get on this forum -- however you will pay for their time since that is they job and they have to make a living. But they presumably will come on site to assess your situation in person. Like any DIY project you make the determination as to whether you do it yourself, or pay someone to do it for you

If you happen to be nearby I would be happy to drive over to look over the place with you, but from your display name I'm guessing you live in north Georgia and not in the SF Bay Area

-- John

 

[rwhealey]

Based on the picture alone it looks like both the sound system design and the acoustics are a problem.

An echo off the back wall can be disturbing to performers, and if you don't have enough sound absorption the reverberation can significantly decrease intelligibility for the audience. The concave back wall makes it worse - you will either want to make the wall sound absorbing or add sound diffusing panels (Wenger has some good pre-made options). If your "sound blankets" are fire rated, give them a try and see if your back wall echo goes away. If they aren't rated, don't use them. As far as RT goes, it looks like most of the surfaces in your room are sound reflecting - the ceiling could be too, depending on the type of tile. You could try to do an RT measurement yourself and see what the result is - there are several apps available for that kind of measurement that will at least get you in the ballpark.

I would also worry about your sound system. It doesn't look properly designed and is most likely also contributing to the intelligibility problems, assuming that you are micing the actors. Your speakers are not aimed correctly and have tiny horns (which means that they have very little pattern control). You can see that the speakers are aimed pointed almost straight along the walls. Since the coverage pattern is symmetrical, half of the sound from the speaker is hitting the wall! The #1 rule of designing sound systems is that you need to point speakers at people - your speakers are doing a great job of covering the walls, not the audience. The speakers are also fairly widely spaced - if your complainer is in the front and middle of the audience, he probably isn't covered by the mains. A flown center cluster with high pattern control loudspeakers would be my first choice for musical theater vocals in this room.

I agree that the monitor placement is also likely a problem. Are you able to fly the monitors? If so, I would either fly them just upstage of the first border pointing backwards or use them as sidefills inside the legs.

 

[JLNorthGA]

Tried hanging the sound blankets on the rear wall. There is a difference. They aren't pretty - but they work.
Sound panels are in the future. Tonight at rehearsal, I will use just the rear monitor speakers and see what they will do by themselves.

 

[WooferHound]

The most important part about a sound system is Speaker Orientation. The speakers should point directly at the ears, those speakers in the picture are not.

 

[themuzicman]

I know it's not Broadway -- but you need speakers that have the capability to get over the noise floor of the room clearly and cleanly. I don't think two speakers mounted at indiscriminate points on the L/R walls will solve that. You can certainly get great coverage with the correct L/R speakers, but you are neglecting coverage in your front rows without Front Fills, you are neglecting intelligibility in the rear without delays, and you aren't going to get it all working properly unless you are imaging the entire system from one coherent location. For the actors onstage, you need some sort of foldback, whether it be overhead or in the wings -- again all timed to the main system so everything is coherent.

Long story short: You need to invest in better infrastructure, proper infrastructure will help tame the room, but hanging panels and blankets won't help you make the speakers better at present.

 

[JLNorthGA]

Again, this is an old picture - so the speakers currently are pointed more towards the center of the audiotorium.
We have front fills (and subwoofers) under the front of the stage. The two black panels on the apron are cloth. The speakers orientation has changed from the picture.

If you have a different placement in mind for the speakers - I am willing to "listen". If you want plans...

 

[WooferHound]

Yes pointing the speakers toward center will help, but they appear to be pointed Over the audience and will sound Distant like that. They should be aimed much lower, directly at the seats that are 2/3 of the distance from the stage.

 

[JLNorthGA]

Yes pointing the speakers toward center will help, but they appear to be pointed Over the audience and will sound Distant like that. They should be aimed much lower, directly at the seats that are 2/3 of the distance from the stage.

That's doable.
Hmmm - I could mount them on the side walls, a little lower and close to the first sconce. There is a HVAC return on the other side of the walls, so I would have to be creative w/ the drilling for the speaker cable. One of our problems is with singers (and actors) who can't project very well. Bringing the speakers further forward would allow me to possibly mic the stage.

We put sound blankets on the rear walls. There is quite a bit less echo. We also cut out the monitor speakers in the light coves so the only sound for the orchestra is coming from the back stage area.

 

[rwhealey]

That's doable.
Hmmm - I could mount them on the side walls, a little lower and close to the first sconce. There is a HVAC return on the other side of the walls, so I would have to be creative w/ the drilling for the speaker cable. One of our problems is with singers (and actors) who can't project very well. Bringing the speakers further forward would allow me to possibly mic the stage.

We put sound blankets on the rear walls. There is quite a bit less echo. We also cut out the monitor speakers in the light coves so the only sound for the orchestra is coming from the back stage area.

What is the manufacturer and model number of your speakers?

Since you have architectural drawings, you could get a rough idea of the speaker coverage by building a quick Sketchup model and putting in the speaker pattern as lines (I would look at the directivity chart on the speaker cutsheet and use the pattern at 1kHz and 2kHz rather than the nominal pattern if vocals are a concern). It won't be as accurate or useful as someone building a model in EASE, but it would be free. You could also probably hire an acoustical consultant to help you with building a quick EASE model and giving you optimal aiming angles for not a ton of money. Placement on the proscenium or side walls is probably not ideal in any case, so if your speakers don't fly it might be time to consider fundraising options for a new loudspeakers. I still think that a center cluster would be the best way to go for musical theater vocal reproduction here instead of the L-R split mono system you have currently.

I'm glad the blankets on the back help. MBI Products, Golterman & Sabo, and Perdue Acoustics are all manufacturers of fabric covered fiberglass panels that would be a more attractive permanent option.

 

[JLNorthGA]

What is the manufacturer and model number of your speakers?

Since you have architectural drawings, you could get a rough idea of the speaker coverage by building a quick Sketchup model and putting in the speaker pattern as lines (I would look at the directivity chart on the speaker cutsheet and use the pattern at 1kHz and 2kHz rather than the nominal pattern if vocals are a concern). It won't be as accurate or useful as someone building a model in EASE, but it would be free. You could also probably hire an acoustical consultant to help you with building a quick EASE model and giving you optimal aiming angles for not a ton of money. Placement on the proscenium or side walls is probably not ideal in any case, so if your speakers don't fly it might be time to consider fundraising options for a new loudspeakers. I still think that a center cluster would be the best way to go for musical theater vocal reproduction here instead of the L-R split mono system you have currently.

I'm glad the blankets on the back help. MBI Products, Golterman & Sabo, and Perdue Acoustics are all manufacturers of fabric covered fiberglass panels that would be a more attractive permanent option.

Our speakers are JBL JRX 215 for main speakers and fill speakers and JRX 118S for subwoofers.

 

[Senorfish]

That space is pretty, but man the acoustics look like a house of horrors. Here’s some tips starting from cheapest to fancy.
You said, “The perennial problem… singers too soft, musicians too loud”
A. Turn down the bass. Seriously this is going to have the biggest effect right off the bat. You don’t really need those subwoofers for what you’re doing. But since they’re there make sure your just barely feeding anything to them. Probably like volume 1.5-3. Bass energy is powerful and omni directional and will linger around that room forever.
B. Turn down the band. Even in a good acoustic environment, it is almost always necessary to turn down the band so that you can get those voices out in front. Good mixing often means turning down more than turning up.
C. Place monitors for the band and musicians appropriately so they can hear themselves, then they wont feel the need to turn themselves up. That photo looks pretty good for the band. But where exactly are the monitors for the singers? You said backstage, like upstage? Behind them? That will make things weird and difficult for singers to monitor themselves. Their monitors need to face them from the front… probably up around the proscenium from above.
D. Point those main speakers correctly, as other people stated. Right now they are washing the wall with 50% of their energy…. No good. The specs on those JBLS mention a 90 degree wide pattern, and 50 degrees tall. Focus those imaginary cone shapes so that they don’t intersect any walls or ceilings. Someone mentioned aiming the center 2/3’rds of the way back in audience, and yeah in a normal situation that’s what you would do. But because of that downward sloping ceiling I would move the vertical aiming point a bit farther forward closer to stage so that the 50degree vertical coverage barely hits the ceiling at all. They need to point in and down, a lot.
E. Buy a decent 31 band graphic EQ. Route your Main LR channels to that guy. Now from all bands at neutral, start cutting the problematic frequencies that are ‘over-pronounced’ because of that rooms harmonics. Pump up one band a time, listen to how the room is either neutral to or harmonically over amplifying that frequency band. If the room makes that frequency sound over-pronounced, then cut it to an according level. Start with the bass stuff since those have the most energy. Your really just looking for maybe 3-6 frequencies that need some level of attenuation. Hopefully everything else can stay flat. You could also do this with like an SM57 mic on stage, running it fairly hot, pump up a frequency and see if it starts to ring/feedback. Frequencies that ring are where that rooms problems are (and the mics... pros use an RTA mic for this).
F. Get a second 31 band graphic EQ. Route the band through that guy. Cut out problem frequencies from the band. Go even more drastic and cut a little of the bands whole midrange sound (800hz-1.5k) to make ‘space’ in the frequency spectrum for the singers voices to sit without as much competition.
G. Get a third 31 band graphic EQ for the singers. Ring their mics out so that you can get more headroom and more volume for them before feedback. Also cut frequencies that are messing with intelligibility.
H. Hang more curtains. Anything really, thick felt preferably… banners on the side walls (even if it’s just some partial coverings), thicker curtains in back. Curtains in the stage wings, upstage, etc.
I. Hang some baffles from the ceiling. I don’t’ know, something like ¾’ plywood slats hanging up high, staggered around a little and 10-15 degrees off parallel to the proscenium but NOT parallel to the proscenium would help block some of that ceilings reverse megaphone effect that is directing sound energy back to the stage (and making it bounce off the proscenium and side walls to the audience making things muddy). You want to break up symmetrical shapes of the room. Ideally this would be done with convex panels that would diffuse reflections. But slightly out of parallel straight hanging baffles could work too and be easier to make.