Loudspeakers Speakers For small theatre

[dmoes]

need Speaker suggestions and opinions Please!


working in a small theatre that was converted from an old classic style church many years ago. the main auditorium seats 230. a fairly high ceiling at about 38 feet and has good acoustics from the stage. so no need for reinforcing the actors. floor carpeted and seats cloth, echo is not an issue either.



My Problem is Speakers. the FOH speakers are used for underscoring, preshow and and exit music, SFX and ambiance like thunder etc. the existing FOH speakers are old and were never very good and the Rear speakers are both overkill 3 way 15 inch cabinets that I never really liked but better than the FOH and can stay for a few more years if necessary.

so time to replace the junk. Heck Lights just spent 130 grand for dimmers and rigging so I should get new speakers at least!


The way I figure it is that a pair of 12" 2-way cabinets of some kind would do the job since I have good amps and feed wires so I don't need powered speakers after some research my head stated to spin Mackie, QSC, Yamaha, Peavey, Yorkville, JBL (the old ones are Yorkville) AHHHH what to make of it all.

what I want is good sounding crisp clean audio. something that will reproduce great sound at low and mid volume levels with the occasional need for something loud, I not over concerned about earth shaking bass, a sub can fix it later if we need it anyway. I was thinking in the line of $1200 to $1500ish to do the FOH I don't need things of beauty but something that has some attention to appearance ie installation type vs portable. the mounting on the walls will be near the front corners fairly high up. This is to be determined based on both best for sound and appearance. with sound quality a priority here.


Id get some sort of consultant but on a budget its a little hard to justify that however our local music dealer is willing to work with me on trying a few different things so I just need some advice to get started.


Our current sound system has a Midas Venis console, various inputs including a PC with Gina 24/96 and Show Cue systems. there are three amps 2 QSC 1400's each at 200W per/ch for FOH and ROH and a smaller multi channel amp used for the onstage speakers used for TV;s radios and other SFX I know that the amps may be a little anemic for now but that can be addressed later

Thanks

Dave

Peterborough Theatre Guild.

 

[museav]

A few questions. When you call it an "old classic style church" do you mean a shoebox with mostly hard surfaces? What are the basic room dimensions? And just to confirm, you use no microphones so gain before feedback is not a factor, is that correct?

How do you use the rear speakers? Do you have separate outputs for each of the four speakers or are the front and rear pairs getting the same signals? Where are the current speakers located and is the existing cabling in good shape and appropriate for the use? What currently exists as far as speaker system processing (EQ, limiting, etc.)?

Might you be want to create effects like thunder or anything with significant low frequency content?

Simply trying to get more of a feel for the existing space and system and your goals.

 

[dmoes]

Hi Thanks for the reply. I hope I can answer these questions.

When you call it an "old classic style church" do you mean a shoebox with mostly hard surfaces? What are the basic room dimensions?

Yep its a shoe box the church burned where the choir and alter was in the 1950s this section was rebuilt with basically a box wider than the congregation area for the stage area. what was the congregation was still sound just needed restoration. the walls are hard (plaster) surfaces with a textured stucco finish the proscenium is sloped above the opening and angled at the sides into the house. a little bit like a shallow horn the opening is 30 ft wide by 15 high the house is about 45 ft wide and about 32 ft high with an arched ceiling and at a guess about 80 to 90 feet front to back The stage is raised 3 feet and the house seating is sloped up about 5 degrees towards the back 234 seats



And just to confirm, you use no microphones so gain before feedback is not a factor, is that correct?

Id say never. unless its used just as a visual/ audio effect. example one show had an Elvis like character sing a song the mike levels were kept low it was more for effect than anything. the acoustics are quite good and clear with no disturbing echo. we have never used or needed reinforcement.


How do you use the rear speakers? Do you have separate outputs for each of the four speakers or are the front and rear pairs getting the same signals?

each speaker is fed separately. we will use all four sometimes for preshow music etc but typically separatly for effects or ambiance, sometimes using the rears for a surround like effect. The left to right separation is important I did The Woman in Black we had in some sequences different sounds coming from all directions.

Where are the current speakers located and is the existing cabling in good shape and appropriate for the use?

the current speakers FOH about 5 feet above proceinum opening 25 ft apart, built in (poorly) into the sloped wall. my plan is to fill in the holes and wall mount speakers further apart for better left to right separation I have temporary mounted a pair of small studio monitors in the front upper corners of the proscenium near where they meet the outer walls and the start of the sloped ceiling about 18 feet up and almost as wide as the theatre itself I like these positions this works since these are not really intended to give the illusion that the sound is coming from the stage rather as fill in the house. these are of course too small for permanent use and besides I need them back in the booth. rerouting any wiring is not a big problem as the attic above is quite accessible. The rear of house are about 30 feet apart 10 feet up surface mounted on the back wall. all existing speaker wiring is 10awg zip cord I put in 12 years ago.


What currently exists as far as speaker system processing (EQ, limiting, etc.)?

no EQ and no limiting at this time. Ive given EQ some thought but it has just never happened but Id like to eventually as budget allows. as for limiting we rarely use high volumes. even then with a mostly older crowds its never ear splitting also everything fed in is recorded nothing live, so if we need to apply limiting or compression, its done in the prepossessing stages with cooledit or sound forge or what ever the designer is using.

as for low frequency Yep there will be some need sometime for this but its not a deal breaker because of apearance Id like to keep the size down. so compact 12" cabinets are probably as big as I want to go. as I said in the OP if needed in short term I can rent subs and later intend to buy Subs if we feel we need them

Thanks for the response I Hope I gave usefull info and did not go on to much. I tend to ramble on.

Cheers
Mr Bunce.

 

[avkid]

Have you looked at the Fulcrum Acoustic lineup?
Fulcrum Acoustic: Home

 

[dmoes]

Just had a quick look at Fulcrum. different. perhapse they are great speakers lots of install pics on the website most in school gyms, hockey arenas and bars nothing where High Fidelity is a priority.

Like all the others the website and youtube videos all say they are the best. have you used their product? would you think they suit my needs? they seem a little on the pricey side for my budget but who knows what I can get out of the board. if the season is good they may stretch it a bit.

at this point I think I will try to look at mainstream brands that are easy to get parts and are caried by local dealers. Im just looking for the great experience here perhapse someone in a similar venue that can say hey we have BlaBla model 649 and they sound great! better than the whatsit 6350 junk that we had for a while.

 

[sk8rsdad]

We use the Mackie SRM450 and DB Technologies Opera 110 for our 350 seat playhouse. They aren't the best speaker on the planet but they suit our needs at a price we are willing to pay. You're welcome to cruise on up Hwy 7 to Kanata and have a listen if you like.

 

[TimmyP1955]

Our room is about 55w x 75d, seats 386. We use a pair of Yorkville U15 per side (100 degrees nominal dispersion for a pair) and are pretty happy. I'd prefer to have something that's fully horn loaded (to keep more sound off of the walls) but there was a budget to contend with.

No actor reinforcement? Nice. We need it in our room if there is any music or SFX, and I prefer it even when there's not, as it enhances intelligibility (the consonants get lost unless someone has superb diction).

 

[museav]

Just had a quick look at Fulcrum. different. perhapse they are great speakers lots of install pics on the website most in school gyms, hockey arenas and bars nothing where High Fidelity is a priority.

Like all the others the website and youtube videos all say they are the best. have you used their product? would you think they suit my needs? they seem a little on the pricey side for my budget but who knows what I can get out of the board. if the season is good they may stretch it a bit.

Fulcrum Acoustic was started a few years ago by some of the people behind a number of popular EV and EAW products. Very good, well founded design principles going into their products. When I'm looking at Fulcrum products it is usually comparison to models from manufacturers like Tannoy, Renkus-Heinz, Danley Sound, Fazier, Nexo, etc., products that are not really aimed at the MI or online retail markets.

at this point I think I will try to look at mainstream brands that are easy to get parts and are caried by local dealers. Im just looking for the great experience here perhapse someone in a similar venue that can say hey we have BlaBla model 649 and they sound great! better than the whatsit 6350 junk that we had for a while.

Selecting speakers based on brand and applications that may or may not even resemble yours is not usually the best way. It often becomes a matter of selecting something that will be accepted, or not unaccepted, than of selecting what is optimal or most effective. Other's experiences can be very valuable information but should be viewed in the context of how it applies to your situation.

Just to clarify, is the budget $1,200 to $1,500 in C$ or US$? It would make a slight difference but probably not enough to where something like a pair of Yorkville U15 might be a viable option, especially if you also have to purchase the mounts and hardware out of that budget. Probably looking more along the lines of the EV Sx100 or EAW VR21. Do be wary of speakers that are only intended for pole or floor mounting, although there are some 'pole' type wall mounts available they seem to rely solely on gravity to keep the speaker on the pole.

I would seriously consider investing in some signal processing, especially if you are mixing speaker models. Beyond being better able to get the same response from both sets of speakers, being able to high pass, limit, etc. may let you get more from the speaker system.

 

[dmoes]

Thanks Brad great advice here. My budget is just a rough one at this point and a guess as to what may end up on the table in the end. Its probably a little conservative but I like to leave some headroom. I may get a little more if I point out the need for processing etc. Id really like to replace all four of the speakers but that probably wont happen right away the FOH will go first since they are totally duff, then Rears perhaps a year later as money allows, at least that is the plan.

My worry with signal processing is that since we are a totally volunteer run group we have loads of volunteers of many ages and knowledge levels. This of course includes the occasional Know-it-all that have come and thankfully gone that tend to screw things up only for me to fix. If we add gear its just something more to fool with. I will be giving it serious considerations though along with a lockable cabinet to put them into!

Other's experiences can be very valuable information but should be viewed in the context of how it applies to your situation.

agreed. I am just looking for the starting point and you have certainly helped with that. Any suggestions may open my eye to something I haven't thought of before. I Have loads of time, just have less than a year or so to educate myself so that I can make the right decision

At some point I will get the local dealers to let me take a variety of models, One has already agreed to do this. Then set up some sort of temporary rigging suitable to test different sorts of speakers as well as trying multiple positions and spend a few days just listening to see what I like.

Thanks again for your advice. the more I get the better.

 

[gafftaper]

First off Museav is our resident consultant here and I definitely defer to his opinion. So do whatever he says.

That said, I want to throw out that I'm very happy with my Electrovoice speakers. I have a set of ZX5's with 15" subs for the mains ($1000 ea). Then I have a set of the baby ZX1's I use as rear surround speakers ($250 ea). It's crisp, clean and has some good strong bounce to the bass.

You might even be able to get away with the ZX3's the 12" model for about $650.

By the way I love using ZX1's as monitors too! Small with a lot of clean kick.

 

[museav]

The Zx series might also be a good choice and there are probably many others. This is a bit different situation as you are not really concerned with intelligibility, gain before feedback or accurate reproduction of a live source, this allows much greater flexibility in product selection and physical placement.

I personally see two general approaches to effects speakers. One is practicals, using speakers to represent actual sound sources. Part of the goal here is the localization to represent the source emanating from some more specific location or direction. The other approach is ambient or environmental effects where you may not want to localize the sound to a specific location. And of course there are an infinite variety of mixed operating modes, one of my favorites is to start with ambient sounds that shift to more localized sources in order to first aurally immerse the audience in the environment and then get them focus them on something. Or the opposite to bring the audience away from a focal point and create a more general atmosphere.

Anyways, the potential use can affect what you want from the speaker system. With ambient or environmental sounds you may want very even coverage over the listener area for each speaker so that the effect is the same for everyone in the audience. You may also not care much about sound bouncing off the walls and other surfaces, in fact you may feel it adds to the effect. Conversely, for positional or localization effects you may want to have some of the natural losses and directionality that the actual source might display. You may also not want any significant interaction with the room as that could alter the perceived source location. Thus the intended use can affect the speaker pattern, location, aiming, interaction with the room, etc.

So this might affect things in this situation like the speaker aiming and pattern. These are not as critical as they would be for speech reinforcement or reinforcing live sources but you may want to consider how the speaker pattern, the mounting locations and the aiming angles will affect what the audience perceives.

 

[metti]

Does your budget have to include the cost of purchasing hardware and if need be a rigger to get you new speakers up in the air? What about cabling?