Stage Floor/Wall Replacement?

[Abscynth]

Hi there! I wasn't 110% certain where to post this so I'm going here with this question..

We're looking to replace our stage floor/walls this summer and I was wondering if you guys had any thoughts on what type of material was best!

We're a "small" theatre (165 seats), We put on 8 shows a season and the deck gets painted at least once a month - Theres probably half an inch of paint layers between the top surface and the floor plugs (which we no longer use) We very very very rarely have any sort of dancers onstage so..Dance surface isn't a huge concern.
The only two things that are of note (in my mind at least) are the fact that we prefer to screw flats down into the floor for added stability and run braces out to the walls of the theatre - and secure them to the walls.

Any thoughts? Suggestions? I'm not new to the tech side of things (Lights/Sound) but I am new to deck surfaces, wall surfaces etc etc. So any ideas or input would be most appreciated!

Cheers,

 

[mixmaster]

There's several threads on here about deck surfaces, mostly pertaining to Masonite, which seems to be the most common material. I've also seen 1/4 or 3/8 ply, but that's a bit spendy.

I'm assuming that you are looking to recover an existing wall, rather than structural changes. Most theatres I've been in have had painted concrete or masonry walls, anchoring to those surfaces could be difficult. What exactly are you trying to anchor?

 

[Van]

As Mixmaster said, in so many words, Do a search. There are a ton of threads about just this situation. Well, a ton about replacing floors, replacing walls is another beast entirely, and could possibly open a world of troubles.
Ok let's focus on the "replace walls" thing as it concerns and intrigues me. Am I < we> to assume that you are talking about replacing a bunch of drywall 'cause you'e put too many layers o' paint on it ?? This can be considered a major Issue because of fire codes. Walls are rated per thier fire resistence. You cannot simply decide to rip out the drywall and replace it with 1/4" Luan, not with 1/4" drywall for that matter. Actually replacing the drywall requires permits and inspections by the City's or municipality's Code enforcement folks. It also involves Fire Marshall inspection and can open the door to further codes reviews and mandatory upgrades or improvments as a conditon for permit the applied for work.

 

[Footer]

As Mixmaster said, in so many words, Do a search. There are a ton of threads about just this situation. Well, a ton about replacing floors, replacing walls is another beast entirely, and could possibly open a world of troubles.
Ok let's focus on the "replace walls" thing as it concerns and intrigues me. Am I < we> to assume that you are talking about replacing a bunch of drywall 'cause you'e put too many layers o' paint on it ?? This can be considered a major Issue because of fire codes. Walls are rated per thier fire resistence. You cannot simply decide to rip out the drywall and replace it with 1/4" Luan, not with 1/4" drywall for that matter. Actually replacing the drywall requires permits and inspections by the City's or municipality's Code enforcement folks. It also involves Fire Marshall inspection and can open the door to further codes reviews and mandatory upgrades or improvments as a conditon for permit the applied for work.

In other words... you might want to hire a contractor for that. Going drywall is probably going to be the way to go if thats what you have now. I would get a drywall contractor in there to take a look, you might be able to save yourself some money by just doing repairs. I would also suggest that you get "nailers" put in on the wall that you can tie things to and that can be replaced. Usually its no more then a 2x4 at the 8' and 12' levels.

 

[TheLightmaster]

I agree with Van. You don't want to open up a wall and discover a spaghetti factory of hidden electrical junction boxes. Drywall over it if you want to but this isn't a tech theatre issue.

 

[MNicolai]

Too many layers of paint on the walls can present a fire hazard as well, although a difficult to recognize and usually overlooked one at that.

 

[Abscynth]

Thanks! I briefly looked through the forums looking for topics..But didn't really dig too much, I'll do that!

To answer your questions though..*we* don't plan on replacing anything ourselves, We have a contractor coming in to do the work. However this contractor mainly builds homes/commercial buildings and is unfamiliar with materials used inside of theatres.

The main problem with our walls isn't so much with paint. Its with the fact that the wall looks absolutely terrible..20+ years of people screwing sets/curtains into it, along with staples..some of which have been painted over leaving behind a very uneven surface. I'm not 110% what lies behind each wall - or even what each wall is made of. I suspect one is cinderblock (the outside wall) and the other 2 walls are most likely some combination of either drywall, or plywood.

Right now the "popular" plan is to strip the stage down to plug level and cover the whole thing with plywood, As well as the back wall.

 

[museav]

As others have said, there will be theatre tech considerations and there will be general construction and code considerations. If one of these has to give it will usually be the theatre tech considerations as the others are rarely options. Hopefully your Architect or Contractor can address the general construction and code considerations.

FWIW, if you are ripping up the stage floor and pulling off the interior wall layers, it may be a good time to consider any changes or improvements that you may want to do such as revised or additional connectivity and power locations.

 

[ajb]

One option to consider for the walls is to put up a few horizontal strips of unistrut--say one just above head height, another at whatever your typical maximum scenery height is, and maybe one or two in between. That way, attaching a wall brace is a matter just popping in a strut nut, is completely adjustable, and causes zero damage to your wall treatment. We were planning to do that on our block walls here (it would pay for itself in a year with the amount we'd save on tapcons!), but then the giant cyc panels that were built for one show wound up sticking around so we haven't had the opportunity or need after all.

 

[Van]

I agree with ajb about the Unistrut embedded in the wall. One of the FEW bright ideas the TC had on the construction of our theater was the inclusion of Uni-strut embedded in the concrete on the upstage side of Pro. Now if I need a nailer, I bolt a piece of lumber to the strut . If I need a place to support masking that is crossin the pro, I have a hug list of rated hardware to choose from ....
I'm very glad you are not doing the whole project yourselves. Do a search on "sprung floor" that may be the way you want to re-do the flooring, it's nicer on your actors and dancers feet. Remind the floks doing the work and Paying for the work that a Stage floor is not like a regular floor. While a good sprung foundation is a great idea, the top layer of ply and the covering of Masonite are going to need to be periodically replaced. That will save you the headaches of having a Board Member come up to you during the first load-in and saying, " You're not screwing into the stgae are you ???"
Love that one...

 

[Footer]

That will save you the headaches of having a Board Member come up to you during the first load-in and saying, " You're not screwing into the stgae are you ???"
Love that one...

You had a board member at a load in? I am usually lucky to get 2 or 3 people show up at a load in....

 

[Van]

You had a board member at a load in? I am usually lucky to get 2 or 3 people show up at a load in....

WE were loading in,

HE had wandered away from his Winetasting party in the Lobby.

The only people that show up for load-ins around here are the ones I pay!

 

[mixmaster]

I've been doing theater/concert/production work in some fashion for better than 15 years, never once anchored set to the walls of the theater. Floors yes, walls no. Am I the only one who finds the idea of doing so a little strange?

 

[derekleffew]

Well, the topic has come up at least once before: http://www.controlbooth.com/forums/scenery/9318-concrete-hardware.html. I've done it on more than one occasion.

 

[ajb]

With the way our space is set up and the types of shows we do, we don't have any choice but to brace scenery either to the theater walls or to the grid. Diagonal braces to the floor (like how you'd normally jack a flat) would completely block any crossover space on most of our sets, which would be a big problem given the funkiness of our space.

 

[teqniqal]

We're looking to replace our stage floor/walls this summer and I was wondering if you guys had any thoughts on what type of material was best!

We very very very rarely have any sort of dancers onstage so..Dance surface isn't a huge concern.
The only two things that are of note (in my mind at least) are the fact that we prefer to screw flats down into the floor for added stability and run braces out to the walls of the theatre - and secure them to the walls.

You may have no dancers, but there is a lot of other 'creative movement' that takes place on a stage - fight scenes, acrobatics, tumbling, etc., so constructing a stage that 'gives' properly is still important to reduce the likelihood of joint injuries. So important that ESTA has researched and published a standard for it. A stage floor is unique in that it should give and absorb shock loads regionally, that is: large areas move in unison or monolithically. If it only sagged or depressed locally it would have low spots under piano legs and other point loads which is not safe or good.

Typical floor construction is built-up with several layers:

• TOP - Sacrificial layer that can be replaced every few years as it gets torn-up. Sometimes it is called 'Masonite' which is a misnomer as Masonite Corp no longer makes tempered pressboard products. They used to make a product called Duron WR that was great, but alas, it is no more. Common other products are luan, plywood, Plyron (which is a plywood layer that is pressure laminated to a tempered pressboard sheet), or generic 'masonite', aka "tempered pressboard". The key to a successful material selection is using a product that has high moisture resistance (garden variety 'masonite' from the local hardware store usually does not have this feature, so when it gets wet it swells, puffs-up, then flakes apart). The high density water resistant material is very hard, too, so it doesn't dent under heavy wheeled traffic. Good (green) products are manufactured formaldehyde free, so they are safer to cut (the saw dust doesn't poison you). Sierra Pine makes a good product called Medite. The Medite II version is slightly denser, and the Medite FR version is pretreated with Fire Retardant. This layer is typically about 1/4" thick. Being very hard and dense means that you have to pre-drill screw holes in it. The face of the sacrificial stage should be painted with an intumescent (fire-proof) paint, which is available in the favorite theatre color of black. There is another product made by RenewResources called PolyBoard that is plastic based. One concern with this product is the amount of smoke and toxic gasses that it might produce if it were to catch fire, and the flamespread rate for it seems to be much higher than Medite. However, it has been used on some high profile theatre projects recently.
• Structural Layers - The next two layers are typically the decking that provides the structural support for the monolithic strength. They are typically (fire resistant) 3/4" plywood. The key to a good monolithic stage (one that doesn't sag locally under point loads) is staggering the joints by 12" (on both axis) layer-to-layer. It is common to lay-down the sheets in a pattern that prevents adjacent layers from having common joints (except at the edges where it can't be avoided). Each layer is screwed-down to the layer before it at about 12-18" o.c. Plan your screw pattern dimensions carefully and you won't find yourself trying to screw into the top of a screwhead two layers down.
  • 1st Layer: Begin at the downstage center of the apron and lay a 2'x8' lengthwise (long axis across the stage), offset 24" to the left. Build-out that row left and right, trim ends as needed. The next row upstage is 4'x8' laid-down with the joint at the centerlines of the previous panels, then built-out to the left and right, the successive rows alternate that pattern using 4'x 8' panels, with the last row upstage trimmed to whatever space remains.
  • 2nd Layer: Begin at the downstage center of the apron and lay a 3'x8' lengthwise (long axis across the stage), offset 12" to the left. Build-out that row left and right, trim ends as needed. The next row upstage is 4'x8' laid-down with the joint at the centerline of the previous panels, then built-out to the left and right, the successive rows alternate that pattern using 4'x 8' panels, with the last row upstage trimmed to whatever space remains.
  • 3rd Layer (sacrificial layer described above): Begin at the downstage center of the apron and lay a 4'x8' lengthwise (long axis across the stage), no offset. Build-out that row left and right, trim ends as needed. The next row upstage is 4'x8' laid-down with the joint at the centerline of the previous panels, then built-out to the left and right, the successive rows alternate that pattern using 4'x 8' panels, with the last row upstage trimmed to whatever space remains.
• Stringer and Cushion Layer: This is where the 'sprung' part of the floor happens. It is done two ways:
  • Rubber (generic reference, actual material varies by manufacturer) blocks are spaced about every 12-18" o.c. on both axis and 2x4 stringers are layed flat on top of them. The softness and the thickness of the 'rubber' blocks determines how much 'give' the floor has. This is the more common modern floor construction. Robbins sports floors are built like this, except they are hardwood basketball floors, they also make a version specifically for the performing arts.
  • A Basket-weave suspension is a multi-layer crisscrossed pattern of ~1x4's layed flat with alternating orthogonal layers positioned at the midpoints of the span between the previous layers. 4-6 layers are common. The exact spacing , thickness, and type of wood determines how much 'give' the floor has. This is the 'old-school' way of doing it, and is much more difficult to predict performance.
• Infill: Between the stringer / basket weave components the floor void is usually filled with mold-resistant acoustical damping to keep the 'hollowness' sound from becoming a problem.
• Vapor Barrier (bottom-most layer): A plastic sheet usually laid on top of the concrete floor to keep moisture from collecting under the floor.

In short, this is a general guide to the floor construction. Specific floor should be designed by a Theatre Consultant or Architect that has some good background experience in this area. There are many very important details that make this system work, way too many to mention herein. This is why so many cafetoriums and high school theatres end-up with tile, concrete, carpet, or hardwood floors - they know not what they are doing. You wouldn't want your sound system designed by Joe's Guitar Emporium, so don't get your floor from Bob's Discount Wood Flooring.