Vintage Lighting Suggestions on improving the output of old follow spots

cbenjes

Member
All:

I have two old follow spots in my high school's theater. One is an Altman, looks like a 1000Q, but I think it's a Dyna-Spot and uses a 750w EHG lamp. The other is a Capitol 901 using a 1500w DTA lamp.

Our director is never satisfied with the follow spots and is always telling us to turn them up so they are brighter. I try to tell him that the spots aren't on dimmers and are at full power, but the reality of it is that they just get lost in the wash of the Source4s unless we have the stage very dim.

Does anyone know of higher-wattage lamps that would fit these instruments? Is there a 1000w or 1500w lamp that would fit the EHB socket? And I don't think we're going to get a higher wattage for the 1500w DTA, but perhaps conversion to Halogen would make the spot more efficient.

The internals are fairly clean, but I'll bet the lamps are very old. Would replacing the lamps with new one help? Do lamps lose their efficiency over the years?

Thanks in advance, Chris
 
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Yes, lamps do fade over time. The color temperature changes too. I know you said that the internals are pretty clean but what about the lenses? Make sure they are as clean as possible. I would look at replacing the reflector and the lenses (in that order) if parts are available.
 
Thanks. Doubtful I can get parts. Capitol went out of business in the 60's, and the Altman is almost as old. We'll see what we can do...
 
Activate the ship signal!
 
...Would replacing the lamps with new one help? Do lamps lose their efficiency over the years? ...
Not really. While many non- Tungsten-Halogen lamps will darken with use, the Halogen cycle prevents this.

Use 1000W FEL instead of 750W EHG.
Use DTJ instead of DTA.
In both cases, while light output will be increased, lamp life will decrease.

I'd say it's time to consider a 19°, 14°, or 10° SourceFour on a stick. See http://www.controlbooth.com/forums/lighting-electrics/15735-source-four-followspot.html .
 
Cleaning, lamp and reflector replacement are pretty much your easy options. Altman will have replacement parts for you. the Capital, well...you are using a 1960's followspot with 1990's leko technology. there just isn't a comparison there. as for upping the wattage of a fixture, you should be very careful. there may be plenty of lamps that fit your fixture but if the socket or the wiring won't support the additional load, or the forced air cooling isn't adequate to reduce the BTU's generated by a higher wattage lamp you may end up having issues that will reflect directly upon you. you must think very carefully before "improving" your fixture since overlooking even a small item can cause serious injury or worse.
since your underpowered and out dated followspots can't cut through the more efficient lekos, always an issue with fixtures that produce the same color temperature (3400K), you might consider the following. i'm presuming your theatre doesn't have the funds to purchase newer followspots? My suggestion would be to find a rental company that can supply you with a fixture somewhere in the 575w MSD range. the output is far greater than your tungsten fixtures and the color temp of the MSD lamp (5600K) will definitely allow it to cut through you S4's (depending upon your throw and the fixture that is rented of course). Or you can position your followspots closer to the stage. that will give them a relative boost in intensity, though you will have a reduced pool of light (size).
 
The Dyna Spot is notoriously dim. The problems lie in the optics -- the spherical reflector doesn't collect enough light (most is lost by light hitting the inside of the body of the fixture which then translates in to heat) and that 4.5" conza (stepped) lens directly in front of the lamp isn't the most optically pure glass out there. The front lens is likely coke-bottle green and the fixture has a fairly wide beam angle.

I'm not saying there isn't a way to retrofit a 360Q socket and reflector assembly and lose the conza lens (it's no longer needed if an ellipsoidal reflector is used) but it's a pretty intense process, and best left up to someone who really knows their way around equipment. That would eek out a little more luminosity for a fairly cheap price if you can cannibalize a 360Q, but you pay the price in fabrication. Remember, it still needs to be able to bench focus, and relamping shouldn't involve taking the fixture apart.

I've also caught wind of someone (David Ashton?) doing an arc lamp upgrade, but that gets in to some pretty serious electrical work.
 
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The Dyna Spot is notoriously dim. The problems lie in the optics -- the spherical reflector doesn't collect enough light (most is lost by light hitting the inside of the body of the fixture which then translates in to heat) and that 4.5" conza (stepped) lens directly in front of the lamp doesn't help matters any. The front lens is likely coke-bottle green and the fixture has a fairly wide beam angle.

I'm not saying there isn't a way to retrofit a 360Q socket and reflector assembly and lose the conza lens (it's no longer needed if an ellipsoidal reflector is used) but it's a pretty intense process, and best left up to someone who really knows their way around equipment. That would eek out a little more luminosity for a fairly cheap price if you can cannibalize a 360Q, but you pay the price in fabrication. Remember, it still needs to be able to bench focus, and relamping shouldn't involve taking the fixture apart.

I've also caught wind of someone doing an arc lamp upgrade, but that gets in to some pretty serious electrical work.

For notes on the Capitol (in the case based off “Backstage Handbook”, I have the following choices in not knowing for sure what fixture we are talking about:

Mark III Follow Spot: 1500w-Q T8 C-13d
Quartzfollow Follow Spot: FEL
Super Q Follow Spot: ?1350w

From Capitol, I list in my notes no #901 as a version from Capitol but possible given model numbers in that range on Lekos otherwise at listed. Their follow spots don’t seem to normally have part numbers listed persay but it’s possible they had them. I do list a #902 Dyna spot from Altman - prospectively Altman had a #901, but that’s assuming it’s an Altman and not Capitol fixture looked at. (The Altman Dyna looks by far different than my Kliegl #1179 Dyna Beam..., so do the ones in the “Photometrics Handbook” from my really old one from either brand as per "Dyna" title for it.)

Somewhat very confused over what fixture you have in this case. Not sure specifically what fixture you have at this point if using a DTA lamp, possibly a Marc III I would think if Capitol, I just have no notes on what that lamp the Marc III used. The part number more leads to Altman though. The DTA is a Mog pre-focus socket, fairly rarely used in anything these days and interesting for a follow spot. The DTA lamp on the other hand is the long life version of the lamp type. If you can afford the 25hr DTJ lamp verses on average 100hr DTA lamps, I would say you can safely output a bit more light and color temperature out of that lamp without modifying your gear. There is higher wattage lamps but nothing available in halogen at this wattage. This lamp will soon become only available from EIKO as a brand for a few more years as one of the few making often long discontinued lamps for others. This lamp will not be on the market much longer. (Same story the DTJ below in not lasting much longer.)

In other words, not sure on the fixture you describe, but not matter which, if you have DTA, the DTJ is more efficient without too much a change in overall heat/wattage etc for the old fixture short of service call to it and liability problems above. Just 1/4 the lamp life and not a huge boost in output. Clean lenses and reflector after that and perhaps you do some 1/4 CTB color correcting gel in it with the boomerang to boost the output some - or at least trick the eye in doing so as a cheap fix. Proximity is a factor by way of the law of inverse squares or law of squares for light, but tricking the eye in a higher color temperature is also something that the S-4 is doing in comparison to the actual light. Add some 1/4 CTB blue to your gel frames and you might trick the eye sufficient to play fair with the S-4 Lekos sufficiently.

Replace the lamp also possibly as color temperature and luminous output does go down some with life. Clean the lenses - dish washer them with “Jet Dry.” After that, for this fixture, it’s an antique that someday would be better served in the lobby of the theater lamped down and adapted for some other long life and less output lamp to light some element of the lobby. Antique yes, save it from disposal yes, but otherwise unless paying high bucks for someone like me to retrofit it to something else - and yes I would be high bucks in doing so... best not to modify it. Leave it DTA and put on low output and dimmer in the lobby as sculputure, E-Bay or put it in a closet with a note of not to touch for at least 50 years.

On the Altman 1000 or 1000Q, above notes on Jet Dry and overall cleaning than sort of a debate for me on going Philips #6981P lamp at 750w/115v, FEL (Now that the FEL/R lamp is now gone), or go Ushio JCV 120v-1200wCH Ushio #1000972


Above concepts in could overheat your fixture and or cooling for it won’t make that lamp last as long. Honestly I bought a set of them for a customer that thought he had #1000Q but had Dyna instead in reality. Sitting on these lamps since returned for play test in working. Think that such a lamp would work - assuming it’s over specification but such a lamp wasn’t invented yet as similar to the Inkie lamp still at 100w but not normally used for that wattage in concept.

Anyway, for the 1000Q, (worked on many) it’s a concept in lamp type I think might work and safe with the fixture in having worked on many of them over the years. Granted my personal opinion and not in reference to the condition the gear you have in able to sustain such a lamp. (This also serious enough to reflect that I as personal opining in not having tried it, does not reflect on the website or where I work in that we don’t use such fixtures anyway.) Liability thing done, going with the 1.2Kw lamp to replace the 750w or even 1Kw version of the lamp should work just fine in this fixture. I seriously believe that there is a 1.2Kw option out there for a 1000Q that should be more intense and work just fine.

Yes heating and cooling is a factor, but on the other hand so is invention of newer lamps in technology. ETC for years was saying that it was fine to extract that pin from the 750w lamp for use in a 575w fixture. Or drill the hole into a socket. Granted it was 18ga verses 16ga wire for lamp used in fixture, still though as heat wire, it was safe enough initially to use, and more something to grow to in use. Safe but not preferred. (Might not be officially PC correct in this above statement and these days one should never power up a 750w lamp with 18ga wire.)

Contact Altman directly to be sure in doing this lamp for the 1000Q fixture you have in going Ushio #1000972

Altman most likely will say that they never have heard of such a lamp and most likely not unless one of my contacts in public speak verses private speak. Your contact will say it’s not recommended but also tend to run this lamp up the chain of command in becoming recognized in getting nowhere. Inkies for 100 instead of 150w got no where in having to pay for re-testing. Given that, Altman will not say much more that thanks for the idea but won’t pay for the re-testing for UL listing compliance to the new lamp. On your own liability to use.

Given that... before you change to a new lamp - this assuming your fixture is in good condition and can handle a higher heat lamp, it’s liability. Yes perhaps a better lamp, I have not yet tried it and don’t know. Heating issues are possibly a problem, but on the other hand it is better than a FEL.


In optimizing such fixture... sure I and many vendors could service call such a fixture for your needs and I expect that any number of vendors could and would bid on such a project for upgrade and or optimize even to other standard in making the fixture into something else for lamp supply.

Keep it antique and as origional as possiblele if you can, than not modified if also possible whe put into storage. Yea, can make it color changing LED fixture if you want.... history of the fixture on the other hand is another thing. Yep, not as dim - retire and save.
 
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OP, is this your fixture (but possibly bluish green)?

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Does it have forced air (fan) or convection cooling? Some DYNA models included a fan, some did not.

On that Capitol, I know that many of their fixtures were extremely similar to Altman's. If you need parts, Production Advantage may be a good source. I cite this resource because I happened across a rep there who was extremely helpful in sourcing 1000Q parts and exploded diagrams for me. His name is Rocky Harlow.
 
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I updated my Dynaspot by replacing the lamp with a FXL lamp and removing the Conza lens. It works but it is only good for short throws.

It does not work if you leave the Conza lens in place. As Les said earlier the conza lens attempts to collect light from the spherical reflector and this does not work with the built in reflector of the FXL lamp - you get interference rings.

If you know someone who can fab the brackets and do the conversion then ok but keep the parts you remove so you can follow Ship's advice and rebuild it as original someday.

I have a couple of S4 15-30 zooms configured as follow spots and lamped at 575W they out perform the dynaspot lamped with any lamp you can fit into it without going to an arc conversion.
 
I have a couple of S4 15-30 zooms configured as follow spots and lamped at 575W they out perform the dynaspot lamped with any lamp you can fit into it without going to an arc conversion.

I can only imagine how impressive these S4 15-30 zooms would be with 750HPL lamps. Are you able to lamp up, or are these older fixtures Church?
 
Thanks to all for the great advice and insight. I did replace the DTA lamp with the shorter-hour DTJ lamp. The DTJ is HUGE in size compared to the DTA and it seemed to have helped. I have a couple more DTJs in the cabinet, probably been there for 15 years or so, so that's progress thanks to this great forum.

I have ordered an FEL for the other instrument and will report on that when I try it. I definitely will keep an eye on the instrument for signs of excess-current-draw and overheating (the fans are still functional, so that's a plus).

Amazing that I used very similar follow spots when I was in high school back in the 1970s, and I'm still working with them today. The cool part is that about a year ago, I needed one of the lenses for the Capital spot - it was missing - so I visited my old high school, got permission to go into the catwalks, and there was my OLD Capital spot in pieces, with the lens I needed perfectly intact! "Take what you need," they said. We're not doing anything with it. I may have to go back and see about the condition of the reflector and other parts...
 
Amazing that I used very similar follow spots when I was in high school back in the 1970s, and I'm still working with them today. The cool part is that about a year ago, I needed one of the lenses for the Capital spot - it was missing - so I visited my old high school, got permission to go into the catwalks, and there was my OLD Capital spot in pieces, with the lens I needed perfectly intact! "Take what you need," they said. We're not doing anything with it. I may have to go back and see about the condition of the reflector and other parts...


Ah, there is nothing quite as exciting as an 'archaeological dig' on the catwalk of a familiar theater, hmmm? What a pleasant surprise!

It may indeed be a good idea to salvage a few (or many) extra parts from this old Capital spot for future use. You know how difficult it can be tracking down 'gotta have' parts when a fixture goes down right before curtain up!
 
If the money is available you could out shine the s4's with a s4 joe-leko. That is an ETC source 4 with a K5600 brand Joker cap on it. You can use a Joker 400 Bug or an 800 bug light. You'll need a bug-a-beam adapter for the 400, and a few more little bits to use the super powerful 800. Call Ryan or Joey @ K5600, 818-762-5756, for more details. We have been very happy using them in TV & Film for many years.

[EDIT by DL: See the thread http://www.controlbooth.com/forums/lighting-electrics/15280-film-people-joe-leko.html ]
 
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