This Is Humiliating

[TOG]

Much to my chagrin I find myself involved in...da...da...da...worship sound.

Choir has two correctly hung/spaced/angled Audio Technica U853A mics on...brace yourself...250 ft mic cables.
I can't fix the cable runs- they are a Done Deal. So instead I have to put a band-aid on a brain injury.
Add to the problem that the Volunteer Sound Engineer is also lacking 2k in his hearing range (not me)
Usual practice is to push choir mics to max with Volunteer Sound Guy boosting 2k because he can't hear it.
It's a fine line between hearing the choir or...artifacts...usual result is either a nice ring on top of the choir or screaming feedback, depending on size/volume of choir and key of the song- room resonates in "D" and "B"...

I did a quick and dirty fix by using the channel EQ on each choir mic but it is ugly and too extreme (and is freaking out the Volunteer Sound Guy who can't stand the sight of Extreme Knob Settings)- I need to strap some form of signal boost/EQ shaping/feedback control to the inserts on the choir mics so that I don't have to mess with the FOH mix just for one choir special. (Short of breaking his arms I can't do anything about the 2K being boosted.) NOTE: Choir mics do not fold back through platform monitors, only present in FOH (ctr cluster)

I'm hoping that somebody here has experience with choir mics and elegant remedies (other than taking Volunteer Sound Guy deep into the Nevada desert and ditching him) for volume problems and feedback. Something that will allow the Volunteer Sound Guy to position his precious knobs where he feels at peace with the visual configuration and can be compensated/corrected out of his line of sight...

 

[Aman121]

Sounds like most of the problems are operator oriented. For breaking arms and fingers, I like a 2 ft length of metal pipe, possibly with a fitting on one end for extra mass. Strike sideways repeatedly until a loud crack is heard or recipient passes out from pain.

No seriously, I would assume that much of the corrections needed can be accomplished with the channel eq. If used properly, a simple channel eq can solve more problems than you might think. Just play around with it some more and set it so it sounds acceptable and tell volunteer sound guy hands off, even if he is deathly afraid of wide adjustments and cant hear the 2k range well enough. His irrational fear of knobs shouldn't be a factor in your quest for good settings.

As for the lack of signal gain, I wouldn't think that even 250ft of cable would cause such a drastic loss of signal. Are console gain pots turned up properly? Or is volunteer sound guy afraid of turning those up to?

 

[TOG]

I locked everybody out of the worship center recently, reset the input gains (yelled at them from FOH position- theory is that yelling from seven times the distance from the mics as the front row of choir is equal in volume to the front row of gray haired old ladies mumbling out A Mighty Fortress in quavering old lady vibrato), then set the choir mic channel faders at ouch, and Main L/C/R at 0db. I hard-minus set the high and low midrange and swept the frequencies until the pain stopped. (Bass is cut at 100Hz and High is rolled out as well.) When the channel faders are backed off it gives at least a sense of security. Unfortunately, the choir mics are driven much like a 60's era Volkswagen minibus- point it where you want to go and floor it.

And as I mentioned before, it is ugly and looks like an ignorant person (or Celebrate Recovery volunteer) played with the knobs.

I've never used a 31 band GEQ on a mic insert before but I'm ready to try it if it lets me set the channel strip (pretty much) flat again.

 

[Amiers]

Set the CH mixer knobs where you want them then pull the knobs off if he cant see where its dialed in at he wont know the difference and tell him that its where they should be. If that doesnt work resort to the pipe theory above

 

[Aman121]

So to clarify, the problem is not getting a good sound with your current resources, the problem is making the board controls look pretty so volunteer sound guy doesent have a heart attack? Sounds to me like the solution isn't adding equipment, it's teaching volunteer sound guy a lesson, either with weapons or words of wisdom.

 

[dgourley]

So to clarify, the problem is not getting a good sound with your current resources, the problem is making the board controls look pretty so volunteer sound guy doesent have a heart attack? Sounds to me like the solution isn't adding equipment, it's teaching volunteer sound guy a lesson, either with weapons or words of wisdom.

Agreed. As fun as all this is in retrospect, Church AV is about educating the volunteer staff more then techniques or quality of gear. If you are this cynical about the proposition of church audio then I doubt you are going to reach this volunteer and train him in a manner that is beneficial to everyone at the church, on the platform or in the seats. I would suggest you move on and free up that spot to someone who is willing to help the man.

Communication is not the statement of facts and figures but rather following through with a relationship until information is understood, retained and repeatable.

 

[howlingwolf487]

NOTE: Choir mics do not fold back through platform monitors, only present in FOH (ctr cluster)

From the sound of it, I'll assume the church has a LCR type of system deployment (Left, Center, Right speakers/clusters). True?

If that's the case, and there is nothing else you can do to get the choir mics "loud enough" in the mains, a for-the-time-being fix could be to unassign them from the Center cluster and assign them to the Left and Right clusters only. The relationship of microphones to loudspeakers is a give and take of distance and loudness…you can only have so much (or little) of either before the end result becomes unacceptable.

As far as the 250ft. mic line runs go, it's no different than using a 250ft. snake to get your inputs from the stage to FOH. If you want to make a possible improvement in that area of the system, you could suggest a 2-channel mic preamplifier that could be placed inline between the mic outputs and the run to FOH. By getting the primary gain stage as close to the source as possible, the chances that interference along the long line.

 

[bishopthomas]

I'm sorry, but I'm going to go one step further than agreeing with Daniel and say that it is as much (or more) your fault as it is the volunteer's. The fact that you think 250' of mic cable (assuming it's even medium quality) is detrimental to the sound quality is just not correct. As Daniel pointed out, educating the layman house of worship volunteer is a delicate duty that requires much patience and hand holding. I started out as being one of these volunteers, over time I ended up being the one doing the training. So I get it. It sounds like you have enough of a grasp on what you're doing, though, to make the most out of the situation. At the end of the day you just cannot defy the laws of physics. There are some things you can do, though, to work within its boundaries. Are you employing the 3:1 rule? Wolf mentioned using the L/R speakers rather than just the center, which is good advice. It sounds like you have a decent understanding of gain setting, although I would suggest doing it with the actual choir rather than screaming from FOH. You alluded to the fact that the choir isn't singing loudly. This is where the gods of science clash with the God of miracles. If you're trying to get 120 dB from a few people whispering over a pipe organ and/or band/orchestra it's just not going to happen.

I think you're headed in the right direction. The main obstacle is going to be getting it through the volunteer's head that it doesn't matter what the knob "looks" like. We mix with our ears. My business partner is a very visual person. He needs to see a graphical representation of the EQ curve (as well as compressor settings). I don't know if it's because he learned on Yamaha digitals or what, but it drives me crazy. I don't care what the channel strip "looks like," if it sounds good then it is. If it means dumping 12 dB of a certain frequency then that's what's going to happen. Convincing a person of this takes a skill that Daniel mentioned. Good luck!

 

[TOG]

As I stated in the first post, the choir mics are hung correctly, having moved them to that configuration myself- they were hung 12 inches apart and eight feet in front of the choir when I first got here...

I was actually being a bit silly when I said I yelled from FOH to simulate little old ladies- Several of the members of the choir are actually semi-professional choir singers. I came in during three different choir rehearsals (they rehearse on the platform) so that I could get the various combos of recorded backing tracks, piano, and piano/organ/cello/classical guitar. The choir is small to middling so the output level from them varies from week to week. They needed a bit of oomph was all, and maxing the gain and channel faders creates feedback. Getting rid of the feedback at the channel EQ worked after a fashion but was too restrictive and tended to make the choir sound like they were singing from beneath furniture moving pads. So I tried something else and it seems to be working- I set the choir mics Gains back at about 2 o'clock (remember the dial-in visits?), EQ back to flat, and the channel faders at 0db. Then I double-bussed through subgroups 7-8, I used a stereo 31 band GEQ on the subgroup inserts. The troublesome frequencies around 2-3kHz can be backed off with more accuracy and the choir sounds "fuller" if not necessarily"bigger" (the point of the whole exercise).

I wasn't consulted when the FOH speakers were installed- there are three JBL's (same components as an SRX4702) in a center cluster over a three-quarter thrust stage on a platform fifty feet wide- the audience is five feet from the stage lip and only five rows deep (try keeping a Marshall half-stack balanced on that stage!). No side or outfills, everything has to come from the center cluster hanging 14ft above the platform (but I'm working on that).

As far as the Volunteer Sound Guy goes, he shut off my floor monitor mid-service again (because the fader level "didn't look right" to him because it was higher than the FOH faders- we use the Aux/SubGroup faders reversed) so there is going to be a Meeting.

 

[howlingwolf487]

Getting rid of the feedback at the channel EQ worked after a fashion but was too restrictive and tended to make the choir sound like they were singing from beneath furniture moving pads...I double-bussed through subgroups 7-8, I used a stereo 31 band GEQ on the subgroup inserts. The troublesome frequencies around 2-3kHz can be backed off with more accuracy and the choir sounds "fuller" if not necessarily"bigger" (the point of the whole exercise).

(Emphasis mine)
I'm glad your ears have found a more-pleasing alternative, but I highly doubt this is the case. If you're using a Rane unit, or similar, with filters that do not interact with adjacent filters (better for feedback-fighting, in my opinion), then maybe I can believe your statement…otherwise, I say you are mistaken. The channel strip EQ is much more likely to have a narrower Q/Bandwidth, particularly when "excessive" boost/cut is applied, and adjacent frequencies will not be affected hardly as much as with (even a quality) GEQ. I will certainly rescind my statement, but I'd need facts from you to back up your logic.

If you're looking to make the choir sound "bigger", you might try a Chorus/Reverb effect when they're singing - add just enough to notice when it's NOT there (like in-between songs, on speaking parts, etc.).

(try keeping a Marshall half-stack balanced on that stage!).[/quote
It sounds like you need to have a talk with the guitarist(s), or modify you own habits if you are one of the offenders. Have you tried cross-firing the amp(s) and angling the cabinet up towards the player's ears? That tends to help a lot in the undesirable stage wash department.

No side or outfills, everything has to come from the center cluster hanging 14ft above the platform (but I'm working on that).

Hmm…not necessarily a "bad" thing, but it certainly may not be ideal for their setup. Have you tried to contact the previous installer to see why they set things up the way they did?

As far as the Volunteer Sound Guy goes, he shut off my floor monitor mid-service again (because the fader level "didn't look right" to him because it was higher than the FOH faders- we use the Aux/SubGroup faders reversed) so there is going to be a Meeting.

Be gentle and patient. Otherwise, there will no longer be another volunteer to help them out. You'll end up doing more harm than good if you scare them away. Educate them; let them make mistakes, but help them understand WHY it was wrong and give them options as to how it should be corrected. If it's a "personal preference" thing, then you need to swallow your pride and let them do things in a manner that lets them work in the most efficient, logical manner for themselves. Two of the most important things an engineer needs to be are flexible and open-minded; if they still don't listen, you'll want to talk with whomever is in charge of the music and/or AV ministry, and inform them of what has been going on.