Updates to Old Shows

R

rochem

Well-Known Member
So this is a question I've been wondering about for some time, and was most recently inspired by this post.

Do older shows ever update their equipment to take advantage of new product development? I'm mainly referring to theatrical shows with an open-ended run, such as broadway or west end shows. For example, Lion King has been running on broadway since 1987, and Phantom since 1988. Do both of these shows have no Source Fours at all, only 360Qs and other units that were around at the time? I'm not sure what consoles were popular in the professional world back then, but would they still be using an old console that was around when the show opened? I'm sure they pull each unit down for maintenance every so often, , and a shop like PRG would still have to be stocking and maintaining these instruments even though they have probably gotten rid of their 360Q inventories.

Similar question with sound, if anyone has any idea? I have no idea what live sound reinforcement was like in the 1980s, but would they still be using the same models of microphones and speakers and consoles that were speced when the show opened? It seems like using older equipment when the theatre next door is using brand new equipment would cause the audience to compare the two, while updating equipment would probably alter the original design.
 
Lion King hit Broadway in the early 2000's.... the movie came out in 1994.....

Most places update equipment when they have to. Nearly all broadway shows rent their gear. Every so often they have a maintenance call to fix broken gear, clean up focus, etc. If they have to replace equipment they do. However, they are not going to add a bunch of seachangers to the rig because they can. The design does not change, the equipment simply gets updated. If there is a color difference, such as adding S4's, an ALD that worked on the show will usually come in and update the show.

There is the "if it ain't broken, don't fix it" theory going on in most installed shows.

One of my friends was Head Electrician for Rent Live! when they went from using an Obsession I to a Hog II. This change happened in 2006 I believe. For them, that was a big upgrade, and was on a discontinued console at the time.

Your not going to see a Mini Light Palet running Phantom, but you probably won't see an EOS either.

The only time you really see gear upgrades on shows is if they are going out on tour. They will sub in scrollers and movers to save truck space and time in the venue. Installed shows pretty much get left in an "As is" condition until they have to upgrade due to replacement availability.
 
I know for a fact that both the Broadway and West End productions of Phantom have had new sound systems installed over the last couple of years - Playbill article here about the Broadway change. I think the London production is now running a PM5D - could be wrong though! And Starlight Express, which ran in London for something like 20 years, closed briefly after something like 15 years for a complete re-design - as far as I remember it was set, lighting and sound. I guess also when productions shift theatres (eg Les Mis in London moved from the Palace to Queens) then they probably make some changes then.
 
kiwitechgirl said:
I know for a fact that both the Broadway and West End productions of Phantom have had new sound systems installed over the last couple of years - Playbill article here about the Broadway change. I think the London production is now running a PM5D - could be wrong though! And Starlight Express, which ran in London for something like 20 years, closed briefly after something like 15 years for a complete re-design - as far as I remember it was set, lighting and sound. I guess also when productions shift theatres (eg Les Mis in London moved from the Palace to Queens) then they probably make some changes then.
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Speaking for B-dway NYC from what I know...

I would speculate that there have been enough improvements in audio systems in 10 years that any improvement in intelligibility gained by a new system would be worth the renovation. Audio also doesn't usually have a huge rig of stuff intermingled with scenic elements as does lighting, thus changing stuff out, especially the house PA system, is probably somewhat easier.

The lighting systems generally stay the same and shows that were running during the years that the shops transitioned from Altman 360Q's to S4's didn't see a swap out. The show closed with 360Q's. Of the current list of Broadway shows, only Phantom opened before the S4 was introduced ('88). Chicago is next having opened in '96, so they probably saw S4's in use.

As to the ML rigs and consoles, there is no way the producers are paying the LD, plus a crew to come in and update, unless there's major maintenance issues going on. It's generally the job of the Local 1 folks to keep stuff running, often for decades and they are very good at it. As well, the shops know they have the gear out there and keep parts. This was one of the reasons I was able to get parts for my old carbon Super Troupers long after they had been discontinued. 4 Star Stage Lighting, which was THE lighting shop for Broadway (at the time), kept a lot of parts as they knew there were a bunch of shows still using these old units and needed parts. Ditto the consoles. Probably the 3 most common lighting consoles on Broadway today are the Whole Hog II and Obsession 1 and II. Certainly all are still serviceable so they are not being changed out.

FWIW, I also recall from my early days learning about how some producers would set up arraignments with the rental shops where the lighting gear would get cheaper by the week (to a certain point) and that many producers would eventually simply buy the package. Not sure if that still happens, probably not for movers and scrollers as it's advantageous for a producer to not own this gear which makes it the shops responsibility to replace in the event of a major failure. I would suspect that it's the same with consoles and dimmers, although generally the dimmers are all Sensors and they don't suffer from major meltdowns. Neither do the consoles usually.

I have a close friend who was head props on August-Osage County and they did a move mid-run to an adjacent theater. I believe they paid the LD (might have been an assistant) for a focus call, but everything moved and nothing was updated. No real need in this case as it was an Obsession and all conventionals, so nothing to update to. As it was, that was relatively simple show with a box set (with a ton of props) and it still took a full week to strike and move. Cannot imagine what a musical would involve, which is why they don't do it.
 
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SteveB said:
... about how some producers would set up arraignments with the rental shops where the lighting gear would get cheaper by the week ...
Click to expand...
When a Las Vegas show closed after ~14 years, the automated lighting company didn't want the fixtures back, so they went off to the scrapyard. At the end they were paying a ridiculously low rental (compared to the beginning), just enough to cover the paper work.
 
Grog12 said:
Er Lion King on stage came out in 1997.

The Lion King | IBDB: The official source for Broadway Information
Click to expand...

Yup, my mistake. I actually checked IBDB before posting to verify my facts, but in my rush I guess I misread 1997 as 1987.

I'm still a little confused though, as people seem to have given contradictory responses. So would a show like Phantom still have an entire rig of 360Qs, or would they have upgraded at some point? It seems like forcing PRG (or whoever supplies the package) to maintain and stock 360Qs just for one show doesn't make a lot of sense. But as others have said, paying for the LD to come in and redesign the show for S4s probably wouldn't make much economical sense either.
 
rochem said:
Yup, my mistake. I actually checked IBDB before posting to verify my facts, but in my rush I guess I misread 1997 as 1987.

I'm still a little confused though, as people seem to have given contradictory responses. So would a show like Phantom still have an entire rig of 360Qs, or would they have upgraded at some point? It seems like forcing PRG (or whoever supplies the package) to maintain and stock 360Qs just for one show doesn't make a lot of sense. But as others have said, paying for the LD to come in and redesign the show for S4s probably wouldn't make much economical sense either.
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They change when the cost of maintenance is higher then replacing the fixtures. Have they done it for Phantom, I don't know.

Keep in mind in many places, it is cheaper to replace every lamp in your inventory at regular intervals then to have to hire someone to go up and change a lamp every night. Same reasoning applys.
 
rochem said:
Yup, my mistake. I actually checked IBDB before posting to verify my facts, but in my rush I guess I misread 1997 as 1987.

I'm still a little confused though, as people seem to have given contradictory responses. So would a show like Phantom still have an entire rig of 360Qs, or would they have upgraded at some point? It seems like forcing PRG (or whoever supplies the package) to maintain and stock 360Qs just for one show doesn't make a lot of sense. But as others have said, paying for the LD to come in and redesign the show for S4s probably wouldn't make much economical sense either.
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I would almost guarantee you that the rig that went into Phantom is still there. Parts for 360Q's are not exactly hard to find, the fixture is still made and Altman is 10 miles north of Broadway in Yonkers. Not much to go wrong either - socket ? - TP22, pretty easy to get at Barbizon or Bulbtronics in NY. Reflectors, Tilt knobs and lenses ?, call PRG or Hudson/Christie and have some sent UPS, it gets there the next day. What else can go wrong on fixtures that were installed 20 years ago and hardly touched (Altman rentals still has this stuff in stock as well). The LD was Andrew Bridge. He might have used something esoteric besides all stock 360Q's (24v beam lights and some such), the way Brit designers are, but probably not ML's. If I was the head elec. and a 360Q was shot, bad socket and when I open the fixture the reflector is gone and the shutters are rusted, etc... I'd simply swap for a brand new 360Q, clear lens and all - focus it and pop in the color and be done with it. I would use the exact lamp as the old one, not swap a GLC for an FLK (well maybe). Am I swapping to an S4 ?. Nope.

Ditto the console. A lot of places still use stuff that's not current but that does the job. Probably an Obsession I and there's a lot of those around and ETC can certainly get critical parts overnight.

So there's really not a lot to change just for the sake of change. Re-doing the plot for new gear costs a bloody fortune in LD's, asst. LD's, SM, asst. SM's, plus a big crew to swap and possibly a couple of missed shows in down time. It's not a one day swap, more like a week and no Broadway producer is losing a week to make the show look "crisp" with S4's instead of 360Q's. And no LD on Broadway will waste their breath trying to make the case. The economics are too marginal and the show isn't going to look that much better by swapping S4's for 360Q's. A total re-design ?. Why ?.

The case is not the same with sound as everybody and their uncle complains about the sound and if's a somewhat painless swap and the producer WILL notice the difference, then yes, swap to line-array.

Remember a cardinal rule in this business -If it ain't broke, don't fix !.
 
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If a 360Q is making Art, why do you need to upgrade it to something more expensive to swap out for and rent at a higher price? Heck, got a tour out for like a year and a half now using Turbo Cybers, Euro tour of it while the domestic tour is still running, also left with the Turbo Cyber. This even if the Cyber 2.0 has come out... why swap to it if given the lighting design is sufficient for the show's needs an any change to an element of the lighting on a show would change everything in having to re-balance?

Change the show? If it has up to now been fine - ain't broke, don't fix it. Really, walk into a dark room with a 360Q lighting it, than 30min. later walk into a dark room with a S-4 lighting it can you tell the difference? Color teperature and a bit more output in difference you cannot detect - older gear often fine.
 
Verrry old post, but I figured I'd share this. A friend just posted a photo on facebook of the dimmers coming back from Phantom on Broadway - they just swapped out for Sensor touring racks, and this is what they sent back.

548352_10151032556226853_1696572367_n.jpg
 
They have just upgraded to an ION, i know the person that subs in for the Light op when he's on vacation. I don't recall what they used to have, but it was quite dated by even Insight I,and II standards.
 
Footer said:
Na, they wouldn't toss them. They would either scrap them or put them in their quarterly "everything must go" auction.
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Seriously, quarterly?
Where would one find announcements of these?
(I love auctions)
 
avkid said:
Seriously, quarterly?
Where would one find announcements of these?
(I love auctions)
Click to expand...

Dude, I get all of my auction new from you! I know they are not actually quarterly, it just has felt that way recently.
 
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