Using ETC Selador to replace T3 and R40 Cyc units

[LuxMax]

I believe that Prism Projection has been implementing a CRI sensor into their products that helps maintain as-close-as-possible calibration over the life of the fixture, but even then eventually the fixture will be physically unable to reach the deep colors it was able to reach when it was first assembled in the factory.

Yes, they use active optical feedback to adjust the color and intensity over the life of the LED module, it's pretty impressive. The Reveal fixture has several different color modes (CCT, RGB, HSI, and even CIE X,Y coordinates) and will use internal processing to tackle the mixing of the additional LED colors to get a wider gamut than standard RGB.

 

[kicknargel]

I'm sorry, but a strip light is still a strip light, A-lamp, R40, T3, Selador, MultiPAR. It's (almost) always going to take spreader lenses and diffusion to get a truly good cyc wash from strip lights, and this comes with losses in intensity and punch.

/rant

I'm sure you know this but want to make sure we're all talking about apples and oranges at the same time. There are two issues in coverage. One I'll call blend, which would refer to colors blending together left-to-right without scalloping. The best way to deal with this is to have a solid batten of strips (like L&E Mini strips) or have a wide through and move the fixtures farther away (like Far Cycs). Silk or diffusion can also help.

The second issue would be getting an even distribution top-to-bottom. The cyc lights will always be near the top of the cyc (or the bottom, or both depending on the application). In theatre, you often only have lights at the top, but you want the light to get all the way down the cyc as well as possible. Far cycs have asymetrical reflectors that push the majority of the light to the bottom of the cyc (which is farther away) in an attempt to make the whole cyc even. Mini strips I believe focus a wide lamp for the near and a narrow lamp for the far.

So far, the Altman Spectra Cyc is the only LED unit I've seen with this feature. Diffustion/silk doesn't help because it spreads symmetrically.

So I'm look to be able to hang lights at the top of the cyc, a couple feet in front of it and get light all the way down. Any gotten a Selador or Spectra to do this? Otherwise I'll stick to mini strips.

 

[jmcgregor]

I will chime in here with a little personal observation. I was recently involved in a demo lighting a cyc with 11" Selador Vivid fixtures. We were not able to hang the fixtures, but set them up on the floor like a ground row. We configured them in three depths from the cyc upstage to downstage. The fixture closest to the cyc was aimed for bottom coverage and was obviously lensed with wide horiz & vert lensing. The middle one with tighter lensing, and the top focused instrument was quite tight. (I should have written down what we used... but you get the picture.) We were able, in this cofiguration, to achieve an asymmetrical coverage that was very, very smooth.

The final hanging scenario will consist of a custom yoke that will accomodate all three units stacked vertically. These tripple vertically yoked fixtures will be mounted on 4' centers at approx 4' - 6' off the cyc. This was the most effective use of Selador I've seen to date on a cyc. While it will be considerably more expensive than SpectraCyc, it will be far brighter with a broader gamut and also eliminate the need for a ground row because of the three lateral fields across the width of the cyc.

One final note, I represent both ETC & Altman (in Utah). Spectra Cyc & Selador are both excellent products, but shouldn't be compared directly. They are two different animals with two different optical systems. I've seen people attempt to use SpectraCyc as a downlight - doesn't work really well - Selador dominates in this application. I've seen Selador used for cycs successfully, but it takes some of finessing, Spectra Cyc is more effective with its' asymetrical coverage, but lacks in brightness side by side with a Vivid-R. Both great products, both can be used for myriads of different solutions, some are just more effective than others....

 

[kicknargel]

Not that there will ever be the budget to triple-hang the cycs, but I appreciate the comparison of the fixtures.

 

[gafftaper]

This thread has been sitting dormant for 2 1/2 years, but I recently got a "like" on my post. Which got me thinking about how rapidly evolving this topic is and how much change we have had in that time.

This spring, I was very impressed with the new Altman LED Spectra Cyc's on demo at USITT. This fall at LDI, the new ETC S4 LED Cyc lights (based on Seledor X7 engine) were on show and even more impressive. I have the feeling every 6 months there's going to be another newer better product out there...

 

[techieman33]

This thread has been sitting dormant for 2 1/2 years, but I recently got a "like" on my post. Which got me thinking about how rapidly evolving this topic is and how much change we have had in that time.

This spring, I was very impressed with the new Altman LED Spectra Cyc's on demo at USITT. This fall at LDI, the new ETC S4 LED Cyc lights (based on Seledor X7 engine) were on show and even more impressive. I have the feeling every 6 months there's going to be another newer better product out there...

Moore's Law pretty much insures this for the foreseeable future.

 

[JChenault]

Moore's Law pretty much insures this for the foreseeable future.

Er - no. Moore's law was originally talking about computer components. It was expanded to include semi-conductor devices. Basically it posits a doubling of functionality for the same price every 12 to 18 months.

Now you might expect that Moor's law would apply to LED's but I have not see it. They are getting cheaper, but I am not seeing a 2x increase in brightness, or a 2x decrease in cost over time each year. Not sure why this is so, but it is my observation.

That said, we are and continue to be in the midst of a revolution of lighting with LED's.

 

[JChenault]

This thread has been sitting dormant for 2 1/2 years, but I recently got a "like" on my post. Which got me thinking about how rapidly evolving this topic is and how much change we have had in that time.

This spring, I was very impressed with the new Altman LED Spectra Cyc's on demo at USITT. This fall at LDI, the new ETC S4 LED Cyc lights (based on Seledor X7 engine) were on show and even more impressive. I have the feeling every 6 months there's going to be another newer better product out there...

I'm not sure I agree with you about the S4 LED cyc light. It did not appear to be terribly even to me.

If you are lighting a white cyc, there are two reasons to need more than three colors ( RGB). One is to get a richer primary. For example the Selador Indogo is a deeper, richer blue than the 'standard' blue in an RGB unit. The second is to get more intensity, so you frequently see an amber circuit since mixing red and green does not give you a reasonable amber.

Unless you really need the deep blue, or deep red color, I would opine that the S4 Cyc is overkill and not worth the expense.

The only new thing I am aware of on the Spectra Cyc is the new sizes. IE they have a 50 watt and a 200 watt in addition to the old 100 watt. The spectra cyc is a beautiful unit and gives a very nice wash on a cyc from reasonably close up, with no scalloping. I love mine. Did I miss something on the show floor?

The other cyc unit I found interesting at LDI ( but could not see it in action - my local dealier is planning to get one in for evaluation ) is the new Chauvet unit. It has a couple of heads that you can adjust to get an even wash, and ( most interestingly) has built in some colors that you can select from the console like a color wheel.

To answer someones earlier question about the reflector on the Altman unit. I think ( but am not at all certain) that Altman patented some aspects of their reflector and fixture design which is why others have not adopted it.

 

[techieman33]

Er - no. Moore's law was originally talking about computer components. It was expanded to include semi-conductor devices. Basically it posits a doubling of functionality for the same price every 12 to 18 months.

Now you might expect that Moor's law would apply to LED's but I have not see it. They are getting cheaper, but I am not seeing a 2x increase in brightness, or a 2x decrease in cost over time each year. Not sure why this is so, but it is my observation.

That said, we are and continue to be in the midst of a revolution of lighting with LED's.

You don't see it as much on the top end of the market, but the growth in brightness, and reduced cost has been crazy on the low end market. You especially see it in the stuff you buy direct from China.

 

[derekleffew]

Er - no. Moore's law was originally talking about computer components. ...

How about Haitz's Law?

 

[SteveB]

Unless you really need the deep blue, or deep red color, I would opine that the S4 Cyc is overkill and not worth the expense.

.

Until an LD asks for an R27 or R83. And then you're kind of SOL if you can't do it. So maybe worth the expense ?.

 

[DavidNorth]

I'm not sure I agree with you about the S4 LED cyc light. It did not appear to be terribly even to me.

If you are lighting a white cyc, there are two reasons to need more than three colors ( RGB). One is to get a richer primary. For example the Selador Indogo is a deeper, richer blue than the 'standard' blue in an RGB unit. The second is to get more intensity, so you frequently see an amber circuit since mixing red and green does not give you a reasonable amber.

Unless you really need the deep blue, or deep red color, I would opine that the S4 Cyc is overkill and not worth the expense.

.

I would argue that a third reason to use other than RGB is pastels. RGB tungsten does give you a wide range of colors to choose from but they are weak in pastels and deep hues. Also, as tungsten is dimmed, you get that lovely red shift that is not always desirable on a cyc. Then there's RGB LEDs that have a huge gap in color output as they are narrow band emitters - not the wider band emitters commonly known as tungsten lamps.

I have seen the argument a number of times that RGB LED is just as good as more colors, and with tungsten, that's almost true, but not RGB LEDs. To see the limitations of LEDs, I highly recommend viewing this video.

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As with many lighting solutions, you must choose for yourself. I also suggest that seeing is believing, which most posters have said many times. Video and specs are only so good and you must get fixtures in your space and use them....it matters not who makes them.

The same is true for coverage and evenness. I can vouch for the evenness of the S4 LED Cyc, but then my company makes it. Don't forget that a trade show is far from ideal and certainly does not represent your specific space or method of lighting.

Thanks for helping me JChenault. No ill will, sir.

Thanks,
David

 

[gafftaper]

The only new thing I am aware of on the Spectra Cyc is the new sizes. IE they have a 50 watt and a 200 watt in addition to the old 100 watt. The spectra cyc is a beautiful unit and gives a very nice wash on a cyc from reasonably close up, with no scalloping. I love mine. Did I miss something on the show floor?

I was talking about the Altman booth at USITT. If I remember right they had the 200 watt Spectra Cycs on display. It was a very impressive wash both terms of output and color.

 

[JChenault]

.

I have seen the argument a number of times that RGB LED is just as good as more colors, and with tungsten, that's almost true, but not RGB LEDs. To see the limitations of LEDs, I highly recommend viewing this video.

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Thanks for helping me JChenault. No ill will, sir.

Thanks,
David

David
Never any ill will. Sometimes a difference of opinion but not that often.

The video is a great review of why a simple RGB or RGBA is not so good on fabric, costumes, or actors faces. I am ONLY talking about a white cyc in this thread. Sorry if that was not clear.

Is the X7 system that ETC uses for their cyc better than RGB or RGBA on a white cyc? IMHO It will give you a slightly wider range of colors ( For example indigo ) - but the dollar cost to get there is pretty steep. That price was more than I was willing to pay the last time I purchased cyc units. But as always your mileage may vary.

 

[techieman33]

I haven't seen the source 4 cyc in person, but after seeing them used as ellipsoidals I wonder if they would be bright enough to cut through anything else without hanging a bunch of them.