What to upgrade next in sound system?

[JLNorthGA]

We have a Mackie SR24.4 mixer - small but adequate for the needs of our tiny house.
We have 4 Nady PS115 2-way speakers - 2 mounted in the auditorium and 2 under the stage for fill. We have 2 Yamaha 15" speakers under the stage acting as subwoofers.

We now have 5 SM57 microphones for instrumentals and 1 SM58 microphone for vocals. We are currently using Nady SP5 microphones for the rest of our vocals.
We have three 10" monitor speakers and a monitor amp for monitor purposes. We have a main amplifier and two amplifiers for the speakers under the stage.

We do have 6 compressors/limiters for vocals.

What to upgrade next? Some of the equipment is "borrowed" or rather leased from our sound guy. He is okay with us leasing from him on the long term - so we are really focused on upgrading rather than replacing.

What we have sounds fairly good in our house.

I would like to develop a "plan" for upgrading. Every quarter or so as money becomes available - replace or upgrade something.

Here are the needs as I see them:
1) Replace the Nady SP5 microphones with Shure SM58 microphones.
2) Replace the borrowed amplifiers under the stage with two new ones.
3) Replace the borrowed Nady PS115 speakers with new speakers - should I stick with 2-way? Should I stick with Nady?
4) Graphic equalizers - how many? I was figuring on eventually getting 4 of them - one for the mains, 1 for the fills, 1 for the subwoofers and 1 for the monitors.
5) Real subwoofers as opposed to the 15" Yamahas that we have acting as our subwoofers.
6) Whatever else? Should we have wireless microphones (if so, how many?)? Etc., Etc.

We run at least one concert a month, sometimes more (this month, we have three). We have rentals (dance, music, etc.). We have applied for some grant money for sound upgrades - but who knows if we'll get any. I figure I can spend $500+/- a quarter to upgrade without anyone squawking too much.

I would like to have a "plan" in place for next year.

It would be nice to bring in a sound consultant - but that would take a bit of the available money - which I would rather spend on equipment. We have a good local amateur who knows equipment and has a good ear - we're leasing his stuff. The local "pro" isn't. If y'all think it is worth it getting a professional in here, then so be it - I'll try and find some money someplace.

 

[museav]

Being removed from your system or situation makes it a bit easier to step back and note that your comments do not appear to identify any current or envisioned problems or inadequacies with the existing system or components. No mention of known system performance or quality issues. No inability to support certain types of events or performances is noted. No apparent tech rider compliance issues. The only such issue actually identified seems to be that some of the existing gear is "leased" from your 'sound guy. There may be some existing functionality, system performance or operations related factors behind the equipment items noted and those be so completely obvious to you that you don't even think about them, however they may not be at all obvious to others unless you identify them.

One related aspect is that it may be more effective to approach potential funding or budgets when you address why you need something rather than just what you want to do. Generally, the more you can put things in terms with which the people that you are addressing understand and that allow them to see how it potentially affects others, and especially them, then the more likely for them to support what you are presenting or requesting.

Having to work with relatively small periodic budgets is very common, but my experience is that letting that be the overriding factor in a 'master plan' is not nearly as effective as developing a plan based on supporting what the theatre does or wants to do and then factoring in how to best achieve that with the budget available. For example, with a solid Master Plan you might find it more effective to save up for some time to be able to purchase something would benefit you more than getting some smaller items every quarter if your plan was predicated on that basis.

Do you have any formal agreement in place with your sound guy regarding the use of their equipment? You may all have the best intents but sometimes things happen that none of you can control, so is there anything in place to address things should the situation or the relationship with that individual change? The Fox Theater in Atlanta had such an arrangement for a time but both they and the owner of the equipment decided it would be better for the theater to buy the equipment so they worked out an arrangement that benefited all parties and that turned out to be a smart move since that equipment was still in use years after that person was no longer there.

 

[Ric]

Brad has detailed well what your overall goal & strategy needs to be, taking it out of the realms of just upgrading gear.
As budgets and spending money are a hard task to get happening, long term planning is key to any upgrade; if I need x in 3 years, what steps will get me there.

As far as specifics of the gear, take a step back and evaluate what, if any, are the issues/problems with your venue. What have you commonly run out of, or been asked for? What has caused problems due to poor functionality?
One thing I didn't see on your list of current gear was any system processing. This would be a must especially with your multi speaker, fills & subs, setup.
How do you know if speakers are delayed, time aligned, and crossed over appropriately? If you don't have any processing then this alone would likely give a huge improvement to the sound in your room.

The speaker system and it's 'tuning' is the key to any good sound in your space. Changing to newer mics will not be noticeable if the system isn't right in the first place!

 

[JLNorthGA]

We have a formal lease arrangement with Joshua, our sound guy. He's also in the booth being a sound tech for the concerts.

Everything is actually sounding good. Any improvements will be minor.
The Nady SP5s do need to go. That's pretty much a tech rider thing. Some of the acts don't necessarily like them. They sound okay, but nor great. Hence the thought of getting some SM58s.

The Nady speakers are leased, so eventually they'll have to go - I'm wondering about replacing them with similar speakers or an "upgrade". With our size house, we don't need monster 18" subwoofers - but should we consider some twin 15" subwoofers?.

We currently have no graphic (or other) equalizers. We're using the Mackie 24.4 to "adjust" the sound. Do we need to purchase graphic equalizers to further "tune" the system to the house.

I'll be honest - the system we have sounds good. I'm just wanting to reduce the leased equipment and improve what we have that's owned by the theatre.

 

[JLNorthGA]

One thing I didn't see on your list of current gear was any system processing. This would be a must especially with your multi speaker, fills & subs, setup.
How do you know if speakers are delayed, time aligned, and crossed over appropriately? If you don't have any processing then this alone would likely give a huge improvement to the sound in your room.

The speaker system and it's 'tuning' is the key to any good sound in your space. Changing to newer mics will not be noticeable if the system isn't right in the first place!

In terms of signal processing, we really don't have any beyond some compressors for the vocal microphones and what limited processing we have on our Mackie. Our speakers are on the same "plane", so we haven't any noticeable problem with time alignment or delay. This has only been tested by "ear" and not by anything else.

I am presuming that graphic equalizers would help in terms of signal processing and address some cross-over issues. What other types of signal processing devices might we need?

What sort of measuring devices can we purchase (if needed) to help us check for these things? Basically we have been doing it by ear.

 

[museav]

I'll be honest - the system we have sounds good. I'm just wanting to reduce the leased equipment and improve what we have that's owned by the theatre.

Absolutely nothing wrong with that being the basis of your long term plans if it does indeed define your goals, however...

The Nady SP5s do need to go. That's pretty much a tech rider thing. Some of the acts don't necessarily like them. They sound okay, but nor great. Hence the thought of getting some SM58s.

The Nady speakers are leased, so eventually they'll have to go - I'm wondering about replacing them with similar speakers or an "upgrade". With our size house, we don't need monster 18" subwoofers - but should we consider some twin 15" subwoofers?.

We currently have no graphic (or other) equalizers. We're using the Mackie 24.4 to "adjust" the sound. Do we need to purchase graphic equalizers to further "tune" the system to the house.

This is where your stated goals may be challenging as they seem to provide limited basis for determining what improvements are appropriate or any order of priority. But that may be where the Master Plan can help.

For example, you want to replace the existing speakers, subs and amplifiers and you'd like to add some processing. That seems to be defining a new speaker system, so maybe you need to look at that as all functionally being one upgrade but then having to split the actual purchase. For example, how are you going to do for a crossover between the subs and mains? There are several options but you need to make sure the mains, subs, amplifiers and processing are all appropriate for whichever approach you choose. And what you do may also affect the order in which you purchase things, if you decide to use a processor with a crossover and separate amps then that may factor into the order in which you buy the gear.

Since you mentioned replacing the Nady microphones being a tech rider issue then I would think that tech rider considerations might also be relevant to some of the other equipment. If Nady mics are a tech rider problem then would Nady speakers also be a tech rider issue and what brands or models of microphones, speakers, signal processors, etc. would support most of the tech riders you see? That may also establish some more defined level of quality or improvement that is required.

For theatrical applications and possibly for dance as well one might typically be more interested in the lower response an 18" subwoofer might offer than in the greater output a dual 15" sub might provide. But are there other factors such as do they still have to fit under the stage?

If you would be considering used gear then that may also be a factor. You can't control when a great deal for something that you'd really like will be available and that could cause you to change the order in which you purchase things if not also what you purchase. So if you're considering used gear then your plan may want to be a little more flexible.

 

[JLNorthGA]

Absolutely nothing wrong with that being the basis of your long term plans if it does indeed define your goals, however...


For theatrical applications and possibly for dance as well one might typically be more interested in the lower response an 18" subwoofer might offer than in the greater output a dual 15" sub might provide. But are there other factors such as do they still have to fit under the stage?

Our house has rows A-K. I ran 2 (100' snakes) from the light booth, up into the overhead and down to stage level - so maybe 70' from the stage to the back. I have an orchestra pit under the apron. Several of the wooden panels that screen the pit have been removed. I've stacked the fill and "subwoofer" speakers under the stage because it is easy and out of the way. My concern with 18" speakers is that the bass response would be too much. I actually get reasonable bass response with the large Yamaha 2-way 15" speakers. When the bass gain is turned up, you can definitely feel it - the pit is 30' W x 5 1/2' H x 12' D. Good echo chamber.

Most of the acts that we book say they want Shure SM58 (or equivalent) as the vocal microphones and SM57 for instruments (or DI boxes). We now have the SM57s and the DI boxes.

About the only thing anyone has specifically requested has been some equalization. So I see Graphic Equalizers in my future.