Who makes "cool beam" fixtures other than ETC?

[DMahalko]

I am looking for options for upgrading our low-budget high-school gymnatorium lighting, which currently is a collection of 24 PAR-54 300watt medium flood cans. When these are full-brightness you can really feel the infrared heat on your face dumping down onto the stage.

I see there are ETC fixtures that offer "cool beam" or "low temperature" lighting, with an indirect light source that points away from the stage. The light is reflected off a mirror, and most of the infrared heat goes through the mirror and out the back or side of the fixture rather than down onto the stage.

So far the only fixtures I am aware of that do this are:

ETC Lighting / Source Four MCM (Metal Cold Mirror)
ETC Lighting / Source Four
ETC Lighting / Source Four Jr.

The full-size Source Four is most likely out of our limited budget range.

Is there any other company out there with cool beam lighting?

,

 

[Corbettlight]

I know the Selecon Pacific passes most of the infrared energy through the reflector, as the lamp is not on the same axis as the lens assembly. You can also print out your own gobos for use in these fixtures because of this, which is an added plus.

I don't, however, know how much it costs.

 

[zmb]

Mainstage Theatrical Supply in Milwaukee is a Selecon-Pacific dealer and does have the cool-beam lekos ranging from $400 for 20 - 50 degree verisons up to $1050 for a 5 degree version.

Website: http://www.mainstage.com/

 

[Corbettlight]

That seems slightly more or about the same price as a Source 4, no?

 

[gafftaper]

Actually the product you are describing with an indirect light source pointing away from the stage is a Selecon Pacific (now owned by Strand).

The ETC Source Four does a lot to cool the beam down significantly over older technologies, but it is NOT an indirect fixture like you describe.

ETC is king of the market, however the Selecon with it's lamp pointing up, reflecting forward off a cold mirror, is another step ahead of ETC in the cool beam category. I don't know if last year's buy out by Strand has effected Selecon's cost or quality. Prior to that buy out, Selecons cost about $100 more than a full size ETC Source Four. However, Selecons are superior in both heat management and optics. I have a collection of both ETC and Selecon's in my inventory at work. While I would never give up my ETC's completely, I do wish I had a more balanced mix with a lot more Selecons.

A typical "good price" on a single lens Source Four is about $300. A Source Four Zoom is around $400 (Which you REALLY DO NOT WANT). A quick search online showed Selecon 23-50 Zooms around $480. Selecon is not an American product and like the rest of the world they believe in using zooms, not fixed beam lenses. You can get fixed beam Selecons but they are not the standard product. GET A DEMO! I'm sure your local dealer would be happy to help you test the options out.

 

[LightStud]

I know the Selecon Pacific passes most of the infrared energy through the reflector, as the lamp is not on the same axis as the lens assembly. You can also print out your own gobos for use in these fixtures because of this, which is an added plus.

I don't, however, know how much it costs.

It costs more than the SourceFour. It's also not as bright.

See http://www.controlbooth.com/forums/lighting/8221-patent-infringment-lawsuit.html#post97993 for other "modern" ERS fixtures. Note that one is discontinued, and at least one has a metal reflector, no no heat advantage there. None are significantly less expensive than the SourceFour.

DMahalko, if the performers can feel the infrared from 300PAR56 MFLs, you must have an awfully low trim. I'd suggest SourceFour PAR-MCM, with 375W lamps and XWFL lenses.

 

[DMahalko]

Heh well in my case I need "cheaper", but a general cool beam discussion for other people who can afford the better stuff is fine too.

 

[Corbettlight]

Yeah, I think a Source 4 or a Pacific is the cheapest you'll get a cold beam from. It does seem odd, however, that you're getting overpowering heat from 300w PAR lamps.

 

[kiwitechgirl]

The truly great thing about the Pacific, IMO, is that they are so modular. You get your lamp housing, and then choose your lampbase (600w, 1000w, 80v, MSR - I think that's all!) and your lens tube - fixed beam in several different flavours including a 90 degree lens (this is really the only fixed beam lens tube you'll find in common usage here in New Zealand), and I think four different zooms - 5.5-13 degrees, 12-24 degrees, 23-50 degrees and 45-75 degrees. We carry more lampbases and lens tubes than we do lamp housings so we can get the right unit for the purpose - cheaper and more space-efficient than carrying more full units. It also means we can hire in the odd lens tube if we want more of one type than we carry, or want something we don't carry (we don't have the 5.5-13 or 45-75 degree zooms) - again, cheaper than hiring in a full unit. Plus of course the acetate gobos which I looooove!

 

[shiben]

The truly great thing about the Pacific, IMO, is that they are so modular. You get your lamp housing, and then choose your lampbase (600w, 1000w, 80v, MSR - I think that's all!) and your lens tube - fixed beam in several different flavours including a 90 degree lens (this is really the only fixed beam lens tube you'll find in common usage here in New Zealand), and I think four different zooms - 5.5-13 degrees, 12-24 degrees, 23-50 degrees and 45-75 degrees. We carry more lampbases and lens tubes than we do lamp housings so we can get the right unit for the purpose - cheaper and more space-efficient than carrying more full units. It also means we can hire in the odd lens tube if we want more of one type than we carry, or want something we don't carry (we don't have the 5.5-13 or 45-75 degree zooms) - again, cheaper than hiring in a full unit. Plus of course the acetate gobos which I looooove!

To be fair, for the most part, the S4 is modular as well. The 575 HPL and the 750 HPL fit in the same base (if its got the hole for the 750W), All the lens tubes interchange, Im fairly sure that you can pull off the shutter assemblies and use them on other reflector housings, etc.

Now, to the OP, How cheap are we talking? Can we afford to spend 300 bucks on a fixture? Would it make sense to put some sort of IR filter on the lights your using now? One thing to remember is that lights on stage get very hot, unless you go for true cold beam fixtures, getting a good wash of light is going to be fairly warm, if not baking hot, depending on how bright it must be.

Edit: Rosco makes several products for this application. http://www.rosco.com/us/filters/protect.asp#IR-UV See if getting therma shield and gel extenders would be a good solution for your venue. That would probably end up cheaper than buying a bunch of S4 PAR MCMs.

 

[jonliles]

... A Source Four Zoom is around $400 (Which you REALLY DO NOT WANT)...

Gaff-
Why not? What do you not like about the Zooms?

Jon

 

[kcraigie]

Certainly Shiben's suggestion would be the most affordable route.

If you do want to upgrade your fixtures, another option would be to contact local theatre lighting rental houses, to see if they offer used equipment at a discount.

Besides being cheaper, you could also see them up-close and get a feel for the brightness and heat (or - hopefully - lack thereof).

 

[gafftaper]

Gaff-
Why not? What do you not like about the Zooms?

Jon

I have a dozen ETC 22-50 zoom's. They burn gel REALLY fast, optics are inferior compared to standard S4's, heavy and awkward to deal with. The zoom/focus knob is rather bizarre to get used to. They are inferior to a Selcon Pacific in nearly every way. I love EVERY other product made by ETC (Even the PARNel!), but when it comes to zooms give me Selecon any day, especially when the price is essentially the same.

I can't be the only person that feels this way. Right?

Someone made a comment about Selecon's being dimmer. I use the long life HPL575's lamps in my ETC inventory and the Selecon's with a GLA 575 match up pretty nicely. If anything I think the Selecon's are actually slightly brighter. However, this may be because the optics are better and so the focus is sharper and the field is flatter. I use my Selecon's mostly for image projection.

 

[DMahalko]

Okay, deep breath, long rambling background post..

Starting last year our high school community theater program was budgeted $5000 per year for technology upgrades and replacement. Due to the 700mhz DTV switchover I had to buy 8 replacement 600mhz wireless lapel mics, bought a small Whirlwind cable reel to stop cord tangling and damage, and some other repair stuff.

This year I'm replacing the 40 yr old stage circuit breaker panel to deal with the breakers popping and all the lights going out during a show, and I'm planning to run about six 30A 120v circuits this year yet on the ceiling for lighting, and that's the end of this year's budget.

The existing American DJ dimmer packs should be replaced, the PAR-cans are battered and dented, all the gel frames are gone, and the frame holders are missing or broken... gels are usually duct-taped on. All the lighting is temporary and usually only gets hung in the last week of play practice, and taken down a week after the Christmans program, so there is no time to really work with them and adjust them properly or get gels set up right. Lighting scene control is mostly non-existent due to lack of time to practice with the lights, though we have an ADJ Scene Setter to do it.

I am trying to move in the direction of permanent ceiling lighting in a cage, to reduce custodial work, make the lighting more available for practices, stop the circuit overloading, and protect the lighting from gym ball damage.

,

As far as fixture heat on the actors goes, I am not an expert, and I have no former theater experience, so I don't know what people with a REAL theater normally have to deal with. I just know I can feel the heat of all those lamps pointed at the stage, and I know it can get uncomfortably hot over time, wearing costumes under those lights.

I had been looking at the LED fixtures and bought a few ADJ LED 64 Pro's for testing, but they are very dim compared to even just one of our current 300W MFL lamps and I figure we'd need a sea of 72 of them at $300 a pop to just match the existing output. So it would appear I should resell them on eBay and go with more traditional high-output incandescent lighting, because we can not afford dim LED technology in its current state.

(See this? Yeah, I added this section. That's our school computer lab.)
Wikipedia: LED_stage_lighting : Disadvantages
LED stage lighting - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

,

Even with the 24 300W PAR-54 fixtures, the directors are often complaining about the scene not being bright enough. The ETC S4 at 575w is said to be similar in output to a PAR-64 1000W, so perhaps 12 S4's would cover our needs rather than the 24 PARs we have now.

We've had nothing but Medium Flood for years, but some beam flexibility and gobo focus capabilities would be nice, so probably the S4 Zoom is the way to go, even if someone here hates them.

Though on our budget it would probably have to be the S4 Junior / Zoom rather than the full size one. I don't know yet if the Jr is as bright as the big version.

,

I have also been contemplating adding sound absorbing panels on the back wall to reduce annoying echo reverb in the gymnatorium.

I don't think a $500 fixture is going to work in this environment, unless we spend several years gradually replacing them. If I get ceiling fixture protection cages, that's another chunk out of the limited budget.

So, I am trying to use this limited budget as efficiently and effectively as possible, because it could disappear before I can get everything done that I want to accomplish.

EDIT FOLLOWUP:
* To clarify, the dimmers and wiring are on track to be upgraded before the next's theater program starts this next fall.

* I am not in charge of everything, and I'm only just trying to help out with a small area dealing with lighting and sound. Someone else is handling the curtain replacement, and due to the cost it is not going to come from this smaller budget.

 

[Les]

Don't worry Gaff, I hate ETC zooms too. Alarmingly reminiscent to the 1KL ellipsoidals as far as size and shape goes. Too bad they never improved on the Strand SL zoom fixture instead of discontinuing it. That was a great fixture, about the same size as a Source Four plus a few more inches of length.
ire
OP: Yep, a hot stage is a fairly normal stage. Do what you can to cool it off, but your success will be limited without a several thousand dollar budget. Maybe it's about time for the HVAC man to pay a visit?

I hate to say this, but I fear that your curtain needs attention first. Being all ripped and tattered like it is, I highly doubt it still has its flameproofing. A stage curtain must be treated every five years. Sounds like yours has missed this mark by a few decades and now just needs to be replaced.

You said your dimmers were overloaded and your lighting instruments were in horrible shape electrically. These are also safety issues that I feel the school should address so as to create a safe learning environment. It's not so much about inconvenience anymore as it is about safety the way I see it. The school should at least pay for the new drape, since it is technically a part of the building and not considered "portable lighting equipment". Decide what is most unsafe, and push to get that thing replaced. Just don't push it so hard that you get the whole place shut down unless you feel that it is that dire of a situation.

I feel that the upgrades may possibly fall out of the scope of "technology upgrades" and should be upgraded to infrastructure safety upgrades, even if it means getting a bunch of 360Q's. They would replace a fluorescent light in a classroom with bad wiring wouldn't they? I don't see it as being any different.

 

[DMahalko]

Well, all I can say is, I am trying to do what I can to improve the situation. I have rather timidly taken over operations from someone else who was just fine with the way things were.

,

I'm intending that the dimmers will be replaced this next fiscal year (mid-summer), before the next theater program begins. I am looking at getting some huge suckers with proper capacity to handle what we've got, and with headroom to grow:

NSI / Leviton DDS6000+ Dimmer/Relay - 4 Channel
Model #N600P-D20 has two separate 20A power cords, 1200 watts per channel, 4800 watts for the unit, $750
B&H Photo/Video: NSI / Leviton | DDS6000+ -- N600P-D20

Need one for each bank of 8 lights, 3 dimmers total. I haven't determined where to mount them yet, but they'll probably be up on the gym ceiling trusses directly above the light fixtures.

These dimmers would allow me to replace the 300W PAR-54 with a 500W PAR-54 and still have 200w headroom per channel, though I don't really trust these old fixtures with even more heat output.

Probably I should then replace the entire fixture, and so that's how we arrived in this posting here...

,

I have also learned that theater resistance lighting circuits that will be powered for more than 3 hrs at full load need to have "100% rated" breakers and most circuit breakers are only designed for about 80% load continuous. This just adds to the challenge of doing things right. I have to hope the local electrician knows what the heck I'm talking about when we replace the stage breaker panel.

Overcurrent Protection: When Are 100%-Rated Breakers Needed?

,

 

[gafftaper]

Let's back up and start with some basics...

How large is the stage? How far is the throw distance (diagonal distance from the tip of the light to the stage floor)? Is there other background lighting you are fighting?

Those NSI dimmers are about the cheapest thing you can get that anyone around here would call a real dimmer. NSI lives in a gray area, between DJ and professional quality. There are some here who trust them in limited use, and some who would tell you you are throwing away your money. They are better than your American DJ dimmers... but that's not saying much because American DJ is just one step up from no brand Chinese gear on E-bay. If it's what you can afford, fine but don't expect them to last a long time under heavy use.

Your observations are sort of correct about LED's. You are correct that your AMDJ led pars are not anywhere near bright enough to do the job. You aren't correct that they are anywhere near the brightest thing available. There are definitely two classes of LED products out there. The cheap PARS are all over the place. They are useful in dark night clubs to create colorful backgrounds. They are NOT anywhere near theatrical quality. There are a few theatrical quality LED products out there... ETC's Seledor for example... but they cost 3 or 4 times what your AMDJ's cost. Most of the really bright LED's available are shaped like a Strip light, not in a PAR.

Have to disagree slightly with Les. Your curtains should be TESTED for fire retardancy after 5 years, then again about every 3 years. Most curtains will be safe for 15 years or so... but there's no way of knowing unless they have been professionally tested. But if there are really old, that's definitely where I would start. Then on to the overloaded dimmers.

Make the place safe first, then make it pretty.

Get your local dealer in there to inspect the place and help you develop a long range plan to upgrade your theater $5,000 at a time. Any decent dealer will be happy to help you, they want your business and want to make you a long time customer. Do you have a relationship with a local dealer or do you need help finding one?

 

[gafftapegreenia]

gafftaper, I have to correct you.

Strand DID NOT buy Selecon. PHILIPS bought Selecon, just as it bought Strand, and Color Kinetics, and Vari*Lite.

So what Philips did is they bought Selecon and immediately slashed the fixtures in the Strand line, hence no more SL. The only true Strand fixtures left are the Fresnelites. I think the idea is to have Strand as control/dimming and Selecon for fixtures.

 

[DMahalko]

Wow have I derailed my own thread, or what? I guess the topic is so off-track it might as well stay in this poor, mangled thread.

Gafftaper:

1. I do not know the stage size. I suppose I could take some pictures.


2. So what are you saying with these NSI dimmers? Keep them 3 ft away from anything, so that when they go up in smoke they don't catch anything else on fire? Perhaps having them on the gym ceiling would be a bad idea if we have to douse them? Heh, do they list this issue in the product manual?


3. I searched high and low for LED hardware of any kind whatsoever in 2008, and ADJ was the only really bright fixture around. But the market is changing very fast, so no doubt there is probably better stuff available now, and there will be even better and lower cost next year..


4. I am not working with any local dealer. I am aware of a few companies nearby that sell pro-audio equipment but there's more to theater than selling guitar amps.

How am I supposed to judge whether these businesses know their stuff or not when it comes to theater and stage technology? Should I ask to see if they have an ETC S4 fixture in stock for me to look at?

Anyone can make a buck selling me tech, but integrating it and getting stuff we can realistically afford and use is the problem. How can I know I'm going to find someone who is an expert in the theater field?

I am more inclined to trust my own limited experience and research, since I know the fiscal, building design, and storage limits we are dealing with. And B&H Photo/Video that I've been buying from directly has a pretty extensive collection of theater grade hardware...

B&H - ETC S4 HID -- http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/search?Ntt=source+four+hid&N=0&InitialSearch=yes

 

[gafftaper]

1. I do not know the stage size. I suppose I could take some pictures.

If we strip away all your questions and start over with, "I want to light a gym stage help me". One of the first questions to answer is how many lights of what type do I need to properly light this stage. In order to calculate that we need to know the size of the stage and the throw distance (diagonally). From there we can help you figure out what you need to light the stage properly. So let's back up and help you with that.

2. So what are you saying with these NSI dimmers? Keep them 3 ft away from anything, so that when they go up in smoke they don't catch anything else on fire? Perhaps having them on the gym ceiling would be a bad idea if we have to douse them? Heh, do they list this issue in the product manual?

Not saying that they are likely to blow up or anything. Just saying that they are at the bottom end of the reliability scale. ETC produces the most reliable and respected dimmers in the industry. Strand is close behind. From there there are many other dimmer manufacturers which are available. In the long run, using a more professional grade of product, which will last a lot longer is going to save you money.

3. I searched high and low for LED hardware of any kind whatsoever in 2008, and ADJ was the only really bright fixture around. But the market is changing very fast, so no doubt there is probably better stuff available now, and there will be even better and lower cost next year..

You weren't searching in the right place... but you've found it now.

4. I am not working with any local dealer. I am aware of a few companies that sell pro-audio equipment in Eau Claire, WI and Chippewa Falls, WI (about 40 miles away) but there's more to theater than selling guitar amps.

How am I supposed to judge whether these businesses know their stuff or not when it comes to theater and stage technology? Should I ask to see if they have an ETC S4 fixture in stock for me to look at?

Anyone can make a buck selling me tech, but integrating it and getting stuff we can realistically afford and use is the problem. How can I know I'm going to find someone who is an expert in the theater field?

I am more inclined to trust my own limited experience and research, since I know the fiscal, building design, and storage limits we are dealing with. And B&H Photo/Video that I've been buying from directly has a pretty extensive collection of theater grade hardware...

B&H - ETC S4 HID -- source four hid

Hopefully we can help you develop a relationship with a REAL theater dealer (if they sell guitar amps they don't count). I know Mainstage, one of the nation's largest theatrical dealers is in Milwaukee. They might be willing to send someone out to help you. Are the twin cities closer to you than Milwaukee?

The problem with B&H and other internet sites, is they can't help you integrate a real system. Often dealing with a real theater dealer, like Mainstage, will get you prices just as low (if not lower) and you get the expertise of someone who knows how the gear works to help you build the system. I realize this is a real problem for people who live in small towns a long way from a major city. Again, hopefully we can help you find a solution to develop a long range relationship with a real dealer who can help you.

There are large national theater dealers as well as smaller internet based dealers with people who know their stuff and who can help you. Let's help you figure out what you really need and we'll help you get plugged into someone who can help.