Crestron touch panel for theatrical sound

[echnaret]

Hey, I am in the process of getting a sound upgrade for the stage at my church. An A/V guy came in and suggested we get a Crestron system to run our sound, and I was wondering if anyone here has any experience with them in theatrical settings.

A little bit about the space I'm working with: It is a large multi-purpose room that happens to have a stage tacked on to one end (think gymnatorium, except replace "gym" with "banquet hall"). The space is mostly used to hold dinners and the occasional class/meeting, but a couple years ago we started to actively use the stage. We do 2-3 children's productions a year. I have gone and purchased a bunch of DJ gear to give us basic sound (because it's cheap, and I have no budget), but the lack of permanent wiring is starting to become annoying (I have to run an audio snake and several other cables through a couple doorways, though all within the banquet-atorium).

Sound-wise, the space has two different needs: first, the janitor, who knows nothing about sound, needs to be able to hook up a single mic on a stand for meetings. Second, I need to run sound for the shows/musicals that are put on twice a year.

For previous productions, I usually have 2-3 hanging mics picking up voices, a mic for a piano, and something running sound effects. I wouldn't mind getting wireless mics, but we just don't have the budget for them, nor the staff to run them once I leave.

What I'm wondering is, has anyone ever used the Crestron systems for running sound in theatrical settings like this? It looks like a good volunteer-friendly system. I'm just worried about the fact that everything would be run via a touch screen (probably an iPad), so I wouldn't have any physical controls (volume faders, mute buttons, etc). How big of a concern should this be?

Thanks so much for any feedback.

 

[Anonymous067]

Hi there!

I worked on a church gym project very similar to this one a few weeks ago. Not sure how their end result ended up, but non the less, this is what we did. We had the same situation where a non-sound person needed to be able to run a mic for a meeting, but other occasions where we wanted to be able to run fairly decent sized (32+ channel) shows in the space as well.

We ended up installing a small 6 channel mixer inside a locked cabinet, with a few XLRs routed to the outside of the cabinet. We remoted the power from the amps (via low voltage relays) to a box next to the larger cabinet (about 1'x1'). So, we have 4 XLRs and 2 RCAs mounted outside the box, with nominal levels set for daily use. When we're ready to use the large console for the productions, we use a combination of snakes (an 8x4 and a 24x4, which we installed over the ceiling, in a crawl space...) to run to our digital console in the back of the space.

To switch between the two systems, we created a small patch panel to repatch the outputs of the different mixers to the inputs of the amps.

In theory, this was the best plan we had. We saved money by not buying a lot of new stuff, (such as this digital system you mentioned, which, I've never been a fan of) and we still have the flexibility of being able to run a 32x8 show, yet the simplicity of running a 6x1 daily rig.

For some other bells and whistles, we installed a power lockout switch so that nobody inadvertently turns off the system while the "daily system" is disabled..

If you want further details of this setup, I'd be happy to send you our system specs, hardware specs, and some pictures.


On the note of the control system you mentioned, I also work with a space annually who has one of those types of system (they use a laptop for all the controls, no faders, no dials, nothing). I hate it. I can't control anything, You have to flip through tons of menus to find what you want...blah. I don't like it! But, that's just me.

Good luck!

 

[museav]

A Crestron touch screen is just that, a touch screen. It would be just one part of a larger Crestron control system which in turn would communicate with the other system devices. I often design systems that incorporate Crestron or AMX control system with touch panels, primarily when having to communicate with multiple devices and wanting to provide a single, unified control of all of them. However, a Crestron touch screen or control system is not a mixer nor does it necessarily interface well with every other product possible, they pretty much have to be intended to have at least some form of remote control. So unless you existing mixer could have all the functionality controlled by the Crestron system then I'm not clear on what is being suggested.

Given your description of where you are, what you have and the problems you face, I think there may be some other options that might better serve you.

 

[cpf]

A Crestron system seems overkill in this situation, the required equipment (server, audio processors, touchpanels, etc) would cost much more than a basic mixer, some cable, and a 1 page laminated instruction sheet for the janitor, in a setup as the first reply suggested. It would also offer much greater customization without getting your local approved programmer installed.

.

 

[DiscoBoxer]

I have worked a great deal with Crestron and a few other "Automation" systems. They are fantastic products in the proper application, with Crestron being one of the best. Crestron is a very powerful control system and if it is not setup correctly to match your needs exactly, you will find yourself with a very complex system on your hands to troubleshoot and operate. While most people have a touchscreen as their primary interface, there are also options such as a "standard-looking" numeric keypad where "scenes" could be selected that may be a better option for you. The janitor could push number 1 and get the system operating the way he needs, and you could push number two for the more intensive config. The good news about Crestron is that they have a very good certification process that makes it difficult for just any dealer to be authorized. In most scenarios, dealers that are authorized Crestron usually are very qualified with their product.

With that being said, it does seem to me that this option may be overkill and also not the most efficient use of your budget. Something like what Anonymous067 seems more budget friendly as well as more simplistic to operate when you are mixing technical operations with basic operations.

With limited details on what you are wanting to do, my thoughts are that it is going to cost you more to accomplish your goal with the Crestron option at this stage.

 

[soundlight]

You don't want to be using the Crestron system, if you get one, as the sole audio control. You'll have a console as part of the system.

In a similar situation, here's what I did: I used a high-quality 1RU mixer that had a good mix of stereo and mono inputs as the main input to the L/R of the system. The mixer is very, very easy to use and is labeled and color-coded with directions, so it's almost impossible to mess up if you just turn up the knob of the color input you're using (green is the mic jack onstage that goes to this mixer and not the main mixer, yellow is ipod/mini-TRS jack, orange for CD and pink for karaoke player). I plugged the L/R output of the console in to the L/R in of the 1RU mixer and set the controls properly for nominal levels. Anyone who uses the 1RU mixer can just turn up the levels for the inputs they need to the levels they need. There is 1 power switch for the whole sound system that is a time-delayed relay system that powers everything on in the appropriate order. The main console is only turned on when necessary, for bands and other events with large inputs.

If you do get a setup with a control panel and associated equipment, either a Crestron or AMX (I'm a fan of AMX systems) system can be installed to provide the proper control, but as has been mentioned, the touch panel is a small part of a much larger system that provides control to your system For your application a control system like this is probably overkill, as these systems can provide transport control of audio and video playback devices, projector controls and input switching, control of digital mixer settings for situations where certain events need to be automated, power sequencing, and motorized video screens among many other features.

 

[echnaret]

Thanks for your comments. I was originally thinking about doing something like what was suggested by multiple people (get a 1U rackmount super simple mixer for basic stuff, and figure out some way to interface it with my current board for the more complex theatrical shows). The installer who came in seemed very keen on selling us a Creston system, though. It's hard for me to judge him, because I don't know what all went through his head before he came to that conclusion. Our current sound needs are very limited, though I can see them quickly growing if we ever decide to expand.

A Crestron touch screen is just that, a touch screen. It would be just one part of a larger Crestron control system which in turn would communicate with the other system devices. I often design systems that incorporate Crestron or AMX control system with touch panels, primarily when having to communicate with multiple devices and wanting to provide a single, unified control of all of them. However, a Crestron touch screen or control system is not a mixer nor does it necessarily interface well with every other product possible, they pretty much have to be intended to have at least some form of remote control. So unless you existing mixer could have all the functionality controlled by the Crestron system then I'm not clear on what is being suggested.

Given your description of where you are, what you have and the problems you face, I think there may be some other options that might better serve you.

As far as I understand it, we would basically dump our current mixer, unless I really felt like holding on to it (I do). We would get a number of mic/speaker ports installed (I currently have none), though he wasn't planning on giving me direct access to anything. I think that was my biggest problem with his proposal: he was suggesting we use a touch panel/iPad with Creston app as the sole control interface. After seeing a demo at another church, though, it doesn't seem like the Creston controls give you very precise control of volume levels (it didn't seem particularly easy/practival to try to ride mic levels with a vocalist, for example). It seemed like the system was meant for someone to set volume levels before the show, and to not touch them unless absolutely necessary during.

The main reason I started this topic was the idea pitched to me by the installer seemed a little off, at least as far as fulfilling the needs of live theatre sound. I just wanted to know that I wasn't crazy. I'm sure I have been a bit biased in my descriptions, though I tried to be as fair as possible to get accurate feedback. In addition to the Creston system, we would get a DSP-controlled line array, which sounds like a much better (and volunteer-friendly) setup than my current DJ-quality/bulky speakers on a stick.

My biggest problem in general is going to be coming up with a system that is complex enough to handle my wants/needs/abilities, but still idiot-proof enough that anyone can run it. I think I will bring up getting something like soundlight suggested.

 

[soundlight]

You should not have a Crestron system as the sole interface. That would be horrible. Crestron-only systems are meant for corporate facilities and lecture halls and the like where you have set-and-forget events and nothing else. You want a mixer for live control. To me it sounds like the A/V installer is either pushing the system without knowing the application, or just pushing the system to push the system, both of which happen on a regular basis with installers who spec gear. Those things crash way too often (once a twice or year is way too often). A console doesn't crash like a Crestron system - you can just swap out the console if necessary for an event. If a Crestron system crashes, you often have to bring in the system integration company that installed it and programmed it to get it up and running again.

It should also be noted about the system that I did that the LR feeds to the system were the only ones that came through the 1RU mixer. Even though the 1RU mixer in question had an effects send for each channel which could have been used to send to a monitor, I chose not to do so because this made it so that if an event wanted monitors, they had to have a sound engineer there, which was done on purpose to prevent bad sound and stupidity. This also means that the auxes and groups from the console went right down the snake to the processors and amps, not through any external processing. I like this plan more than having monitors on a touchscreen that others can use (yes, I know Crestron has certain levels of lockout) because it means that if you can't touch the main mixer (just put a lid and padlock on it), you can't use the more advanced features of the system that you want to have a qualified engineer there for.

 

[museav]

Thanks for your comments. I was originally thinking about doing something like what was suggested by multiple people (get a 1U rackmount super simple mixer for basic stuff, and figure out some way to interface it with my current board for the more complex theatrical shows). The installer who came in seemed very keen on selling us a Creston system, though. It's hard for me to judge him, because I don't know what all went through his head before he came to that conclusion. Our current sound needs are very limited, though I can see them quickly growing if we ever decide to expand.



As far as I understand it, we would basically dump our current mixer, unless I really felt like holding on to it (I do). We would get a number of mic/speaker ports installed (I currently have none), though he wasn't planning on giving me direct access to anything. I think that was my biggest problem with his proposal: he was suggesting we use a touch panel/iPad with Creston app as the sole control interface. After seeing a demo at another church, though, it doesn't seem like the Creston controls give you very precise control of volume levels (it didn't seem particularly easy/practival to try to ride mic levels with a vocalist, for example). It seemed like the system was meant for someone to set volume levels before the show, and to not touch them unless absolutely necessary during.

The main reason I started this topic was the idea pitched to me by the installer seemed a little off, at least as far as fulfilling the needs of live theatre sound. I just wanted to know that I wasn't crazy. I'm sure I have been a bit biased in my descriptions, though I tried to be as fair as possible to get accurate feedback. In addition to the Creston system, we would get a DSP-controlled line array, which sounds like a much better (and volunteer-friendly) setup than my current DJ-quality/bulky speakers on a stick.

So this is a church with a limited budget that has a multipurpose space with fairly common situation of needing to support both simple events and theatrical type events. And the suggested solution is a new mixer, line array and a Crestron control system with a touch panel. That does sound a bit odd. What specifically are they recommending for the mixer and speakers and more importantly, how did they arrive at those recommendations?

What I often do in such situations is to have dedicated 'basic use' mic inputs that go to a mixer, often an auotmixer, within a DSP device along with the main mixer outputs. Or you can split some mic inputs so they run to both the main mixer and the DSP device. Some DSP devices provide simple remotes and with the right programming you can then select between 'Basic' and 'Performance' modes, in 'Basic' mode the DSP mixes the limited number of selected mic inputs with the remote allowing you to control both the input and output volume. In 'Performance' mode the DSP takes the input from the main mixer. This is sort of the same idea soundlight noted but using a DSP device and associated remote control panel instead of a manual mixer. There are also other options to resolve your situation that I think may better serve you than what is recommended.

In deference to soundlight's comments, I often incorporate AMX and Crestron system into theatres and performance spaces however these are usually addressing multiple functions such as video source switching, projector and screen control, and audio control for the basic audio scenario described above. However, in everything from school gyms and multipurpose rooms to theatres and arenas, I have never used one of these systems in place of a mixing console for performance audio.

 

[cdcarter]

What I often do in such situations is to have dedicated 'basic use' mic inputs that go to a mixer, often an auotmixer, within a DSP device along with the main mixer outputs. Or you can split some mic inputs so they run to both the main mixer and the DSP device. Some DSP devices provide simple remotes and with the right programming you can then select between 'Basic' and 'Performance' modes, in 'Basic' mode the DSP mixes the limited number of selected mic inputs with the remote allowing you to control both the input and output volume. In 'Performance' mode the DSP takes the input from the main mixer. This is sort of the same idea soundlight noted but using a DSP device and associated remote control panel instead of a manual mixer. There are also other options to resolve your situation that I think may better serve you than what is recommended.

I agree, a DSP with a few base settings as well as a "performance" mode probably seems like the smartest idea. The switchover to your performance console wouldn't require any patching, and you wouldn't have to try and control it through an iPad...

 

[soundlight]

In deference to soundlight's comments, I often incorporate AMX and Crestron system into theatres and performance spaces however these are usually addressing multiple functions such as video source switching, projector and screen control, and audio control for the basic audio scenario described above. However, in everything from school gyms and multipurpose rooms to theatres and arenas, I have never used one of these systems in place of a mixing console for performance audio.

Exactly - these systems are usually controlling more things. If the OP was putting in a projector and video switcher, I'd say AMX all the way. But with a solely audio situation, it's hard to defend that.

Another option that just came in to my head - you could probably use BSS Soundweb processing with a BLU-10 remote and use that to recall simple audio scenes that use the automixer in the BSS unit. Pretty much what museav said in paragraph two above, but I'm recommending products here. Quick and elegant solution if you have the money.

 

[museav]

Another option that just came in to my head - you could probably use BSS Soundweb processing with a BLU-10 remote and use that to recall simple audio scenes that use the automixer in the BSS unit. Pretty much what museav said in paragraph two above, but I'm recommending products here. Quick and elegant solution if you have the money.

Yep, BSS, Biamp, Ashly, Rane, Symetrix, Peavey MediaMatrix and a number of other manuafcturers offer matrix DSP products that could likely support the programming and remote control described.

 

[Anonymous067]

I agree with all of Brad's ideas on this one, for the record.

I have this exact setup at a facility I mix for (a church, too), and it works great. Automix for daily use, and when those of us with KEYS can unlock the main mixer, we switch from automix to "performance" mode.

We're using a Yamaha [CORRECTION: PEAVEY] media matrix system (not sure on the exact model). It really is a great setup.

EDIT: Peavey...my bad!

 

[derekleffew]

...We're using a Yamaha media matrix system (not sure on the exact model). ...

Media Matrix is a Peavey product, very much unlike any of their other offerings. No doubt Yamaha has something similar.

 

[Anonymous067]

Media Matrix is a Peavey product, very much unlike any of their other offerings. No doubt Yamaha has something similar.

my bad!

 

[museav]

Media Matrix is a Peavey product, very much unlike any of their other offerings.

In fact, MediaMatrix is a totally separate division with much more limited distribution. And that points out a critical aspect which is that both programmable control systems like Crestron or AMX systems and 'free wire' processors for which the programmer defines all functionality are not only totally dependent upon the programming, and thus the programmer and their abilities, but also typically have no functionality until programmed.

 

[Anonymous067]

In fact, MediaMatrix is a totally separate division with much more limited distribution. And that points out a critical aspect which is that both programmable control systems like Crestron or AMX systems and 'free wire' processors for which the programmer defines all functionality are not only totally dependent upon the programming, and thus the programmer and their abilities, but also typically have no functionality until programmed.

Oh. Sorry I didn't know...

 

[museav]

Oh. Sorry I didn't know...

Maybe my comment came across wrong, I was really just trying to point out that many more advanced DSP devices as AMX and Crestron control systems are far from 'plug and play' and because of that the manufacturers tend to be a bit pickier about who can sell them. It also means that you could spend more on having someone program the devices than you do on the devices themselves (and that you want to be sure to get a copy of that programming).