jamsession
Member
Greetings - I've enjoyed reading y'alls other posts. 2 weeks of time well spent. That done, I reckon its time I posted.
a little background:
I've been interested in sound ever since I was old enough to take apart a tape recorder to see who's inside. (How did John Denver get in that 8-track cartridge??) Or get the magnets out of old speakers and pick up iron filings.
Anywho, fast-forward many moons, now I've started working live sound, and started getting serious about sound design/AV installs, digital recording, and the thrills and chills of live production. It's a dharma thing and I love it. I sure appreciate this site and the knowledge and experience many of you share so freely. The difference between the books I read on the subject and the real world, is fasc-in-at-ing.
Thank You. It's fun.
I have a project I'm working on and would welcome any suggestions/experience that may be helpful and save time or $.
I'm upgrading a school gym for their theatrical productions. Next one is (get this!) in 2 weeks from tomorrow - I'm the miracle man if I can pull this off (and I plan to, as it's their big production of the year.) I've got most of it spec'd out, as always a few ideas still in the air.
Design objectives: it's a school gym (Multipurpose - assemblies, parent programs, basketball games). Value, reliability, durability, ease of operation are priorities. It's a beautiful space, Aesthetics are fairly important.
Gym size:
108' wide (doors to doors), 71' across (back wall to front of stage. The stage extends additional 34' back from front of stage.) 30' high ceiling - (open HVAC grid structure comes down 4' from that). 4 basketball standards that swing up,
Mix position will be back wall, center.
Occupancy: 1,005
stage is 49' across, 2' up from gym floor. so about 30' on each side of stage to the far walls.
Acoustics:
A row of 4'x4' sound panels (fabric on frames with I guess rigid-back insulation inside) which line 3 walls, 10' up. fairly live space but having 1,000 people in it changes it of course. For a gym it's pretty good. No noticeable slapback echo, etc. since current PA is 24 ceiling mounted mono cones distributed. Works ok for intercom/paging but not music source.
Problems to Solve:
1) mono-cone speakers are 30' up, intelligibility is a bit of a prob. It sounds like you're in a gym.
2) lots of mic ringing (dynamic, handheld) due to lots of big hard surfaces, untrained staff, possible system eq.
Overall, that works _ok_ so I'm going to leave that system for regular gym class/intercom. For theatrical prods, will add some speakers along the 49' stage (front of house), wireless and floor (boundary) mic the actors on stage. add system eq, compression, good gain structure. (I will be doing the live sound mixing for the performances.) I have an interest in making it sound good.
If I get some 90 degree dispersion speakers, I'm guessing that they can do the 70' throw to the back wall and get decent coverage. I will mount them 12' up and angle downwards a bit. I may add side fill speakers (30' back or so) if needed, on a delay. (see: intelligibility probs)
QUESTIONS:
1) Micing choir: there will be 30' of 4-step risers on each side of stage, with 125 member choir on each side. Could do 2 stereo pairs, or 3,4 mics seperated 8' apart or so. Will figure out during rehearsals, but welcome suggestions.
2) Recommendations for a good multipurpose condenser mic for choirs, vocal?
I've been looking at MXL 990, Shure KSM109SL, something in the $150 range with a shockmount and case would be . I've heard lots of good things about the Studio Projects C1, bit more at around 239 but nice to have for soloists, etc. Want bass rolloff to avoid stand/floor noise, cardiod/polar pattern switch to avoid feedback since choir is in front of the speakers. I'm asking a lot but nowadays there are some real nice options sub $200.
3) k, this blew my mind, but I heard you can well and truly mic a piano with a boundary mic (taped inside lid, with the lid DOWN). crown pcc160. I'll give it a try.
4) on front of stage, 3 or 4 boundary mics (crown pcc160)
5) wireless mics for key actors, looking at Shure SLX14/93 and Sennheiser EW112G2, similar prices... - ease of use, selecting freq, for schools especially: DURABILITY RULES THE ROOST so I'm leaning towards the Shure, thx to the good posts previous regarding this topic. Would opt for 1 or 2 less bodypacks/receivers and a few extra mics so I can have more mic'd up and just switch bodypacks as needed. (Countryman B3 seems the good route, but they aint cheap - oh, what a large diaphragm condenser I can buy for one of those!)
6) speakers (with 90x50 degree dispersion speakers 3' from corners of stage, and 12' up, I'm expecting can control feedback pretty well. One friend who does a lot of schools suggested using 3 speakers (EV sx300), right above stage, tucked in, left|center|right). They would look nice mounted there, good center coverage, but not reach the sides as well, and it puts the speakers RIGHT OVER (10' above) the floor mics. Granted, they are 60x50 dispersion..... so I dunno.... if I can put 2, 90x50's on the corners, I get energy to the sides better without too much reflection. methinks better coverage that way.... harder to mount, but better sound. white speakers will match ok. For those (2 speaker option) - looking at JBL Control 30, possibly JBL AM2415/95 (but cant get the latter in by next week, could in 2 weeks, so I'd have to do something temporary on poles or fly if I go with the AMs.
LOTS of schools use the EVsx300, and could go that route, on paper and the friends advice they have good vocal range intelligibility, but alas the 65 degree dispersion. For 108' wide room with 2 speakers, me needs dispersion.
I can always use the 2 side fills for each performance, definitely an option (they already have the 2 side speakers, on poles so I can move them around.)
FYI - now, JBL SRX700 series are out of budget for this install, but I heard a pair last weekend and those roclk. vocals waay clear, tons o' power handling, and for a reason unbeknownst to me, appear to have this amazing feedback rejection. He said he was doing PA for a guy a couple weeks ago, using the SRX712's as floor monitors, who was swinging an SM58, RIGHT IN FRONT of them and they didnt howl. that's a neat trick. that would solve the gyms ringing problems once and for all??? hmmm....... more research needed but interesting so thought I'd share and welcome thoughts/experience on this one. talking about gear is cheap. You need a sub with this speakers.
I'm not installing a sub here, will wheel one out as needed for music-oriented programs, but am going for the speech clarity here.
interesting note: for the 2 side choirs, they will be singing different songs at different times. before I found that out, was going to do the show in mono to make consistent audience experience. but now I may do each side on their own channel, and pan the left choir to the right side, and vice versa. So that people sitting next to the choir that is singing, hear the choir, and audience on the far side get some amplification through the PA. Make it a bit more natural. I like that idea. we'll see how it works (plus it reduced feedback).
7) One other thing I'd like to do is set the narrator (adult) up with a nice big on/off mute switch he can operate himself. something I can plug his mic into (XLR in/out), ideally would have 2 leds on it - one green meaning his mic is on, one red meaning it's muted. one led meaning it's on is fine. Silent - doesn't pop when operated. I'm half temped to build, but given the short timeframe and all the other work I got going on, would welcome a cost-effective plug-n-play solution here.
OK, I know that was a mother of all long messages, hope you don't mind that, as an engineer for me more info is helpful and I welcome ideas for success on any of the above. Thanks & Best,
Jam
a little background:
I've been interested in sound ever since I was old enough to take apart a tape recorder to see who's inside. (How did John Denver get in that 8-track cartridge??) Or get the magnets out of old speakers and pick up iron filings.
Anywho, fast-forward many moons, now I've started working live sound, and started getting serious about sound design/AV installs, digital recording, and the thrills and chills of live production. It's a dharma thing and I love it. I sure appreciate this site and the knowledge and experience many of you share so freely. The difference between the books I read on the subject and the real world, is fasc-in-at-ing.
Thank You. It's fun.
I have a project I'm working on and would welcome any suggestions/experience that may be helpful and save time or $.
I'm upgrading a school gym for their theatrical productions. Next one is (get this!) in 2 weeks from tomorrow - I'm the miracle man if I can pull this off (and I plan to, as it's their big production of the year.) I've got most of it spec'd out, as always a few ideas still in the air.
Design objectives: it's a school gym (Multipurpose - assemblies, parent programs, basketball games). Value, reliability, durability, ease of operation are priorities. It's a beautiful space, Aesthetics are fairly important.
Gym size:
108' wide (doors to doors), 71' across (back wall to front of stage. The stage extends additional 34' back from front of stage.) 30' high ceiling - (open HVAC grid structure comes down 4' from that). 4 basketball standards that swing up,
Mix position will be back wall, center.
Occupancy: 1,005
stage is 49' across, 2' up from gym floor. so about 30' on each side of stage to the far walls.
Acoustics:
A row of 4'x4' sound panels (fabric on frames with I guess rigid-back insulation inside) which line 3 walls, 10' up. fairly live space but having 1,000 people in it changes it of course. For a gym it's pretty good. No noticeable slapback echo, etc. since current PA is 24 ceiling mounted mono cones distributed. Works ok for intercom/paging but not music source.
Problems to Solve:
1) mono-cone speakers are 30' up, intelligibility is a bit of a prob. It sounds like you're in a gym.
2) lots of mic ringing (dynamic, handheld) due to lots of big hard surfaces, untrained staff, possible system eq.
Overall, that works _ok_ so I'm going to leave that system for regular gym class/intercom. For theatrical prods, will add some speakers along the 49' stage (front of house), wireless and floor (boundary) mic the actors on stage. add system eq, compression, good gain structure. (I will be doing the live sound mixing for the performances.) I have an interest in making it sound good.
If I get some 90 degree dispersion speakers, I'm guessing that they can do the 70' throw to the back wall and get decent coverage. I will mount them 12' up and angle downwards a bit. I may add side fill speakers (30' back or so) if needed, on a delay. (see: intelligibility probs)
QUESTIONS:
1) Micing choir: there will be 30' of 4-step risers on each side of stage, with 125 member choir on each side. Could do 2 stereo pairs, or 3,4 mics seperated 8' apart or so. Will figure out during rehearsals, but welcome suggestions.
2) Recommendations for a good multipurpose condenser mic for choirs, vocal?
I've been looking at MXL 990, Shure KSM109SL, something in the $150 range with a shockmount and case would be . I've heard lots of good things about the Studio Projects C1, bit more at around 239 but nice to have for soloists, etc. Want bass rolloff to avoid stand/floor noise, cardiod/polar pattern switch to avoid feedback since choir is in front of the speakers. I'm asking a lot but nowadays there are some real nice options sub $200.
3) k, this blew my mind, but I heard you can well and truly mic a piano with a boundary mic (taped inside lid, with the lid DOWN). crown pcc160. I'll give it a try.
4) on front of stage, 3 or 4 boundary mics (crown pcc160)
5) wireless mics for key actors, looking at Shure SLX14/93 and Sennheiser EW112G2, similar prices... - ease of use, selecting freq, for schools especially: DURABILITY RULES THE ROOST so I'm leaning towards the Shure, thx to the good posts previous regarding this topic. Would opt for 1 or 2 less bodypacks/receivers and a few extra mics so I can have more mic'd up and just switch bodypacks as needed. (Countryman B3 seems the good route, but they aint cheap - oh, what a large diaphragm condenser I can buy for one of those!)
6) speakers (with 90x50 degree dispersion speakers 3' from corners of stage, and 12' up, I'm expecting can control feedback pretty well. One friend who does a lot of schools suggested using 3 speakers (EV sx300), right above stage, tucked in, left|center|right). They would look nice mounted there, good center coverage, but not reach the sides as well, and it puts the speakers RIGHT OVER (10' above) the floor mics. Granted, they are 60x50 dispersion..... so I dunno.... if I can put 2, 90x50's on the corners, I get energy to the sides better without too much reflection. methinks better coverage that way.... harder to mount, but better sound. white speakers will match ok. For those (2 speaker option) - looking at JBL Control 30, possibly JBL AM2415/95 (but cant get the latter in by next week, could in 2 weeks, so I'd have to do something temporary on poles or fly if I go with the AMs.
LOTS of schools use the EVsx300, and could go that route, on paper and the friends advice they have good vocal range intelligibility, but alas the 65 degree dispersion. For 108' wide room with 2 speakers, me needs dispersion.
I can always use the 2 side fills for each performance, definitely an option (they already have the 2 side speakers, on poles so I can move them around.)
FYI - now, JBL SRX700 series are out of budget for this install, but I heard a pair last weekend and those roclk. vocals waay clear, tons o' power handling, and for a reason unbeknownst to me, appear to have this amazing feedback rejection. He said he was doing PA for a guy a couple weeks ago, using the SRX712's as floor monitors, who was swinging an SM58, RIGHT IN FRONT of them and they didnt howl. that's a neat trick. that would solve the gyms ringing problems once and for all??? hmmm....... more research needed but interesting so thought I'd share and welcome thoughts/experience on this one. talking about gear is cheap. You need a sub with this speakers.
I'm not installing a sub here, will wheel one out as needed for music-oriented programs, but am going for the speech clarity here.
interesting note: for the 2 side choirs, they will be singing different songs at different times. before I found that out, was going to do the show in mono to make consistent audience experience. but now I may do each side on their own channel, and pan the left choir to the right side, and vice versa. So that people sitting next to the choir that is singing, hear the choir, and audience on the far side get some amplification through the PA. Make it a bit more natural. I like that idea. we'll see how it works (plus it reduced feedback).
7) One other thing I'd like to do is set the narrator (adult) up with a nice big on/off mute switch he can operate himself. something I can plug his mic into (XLR in/out), ideally would have 2 leds on it - one green meaning his mic is on, one red meaning it's muted. one led meaning it's on is fine. Silent - doesn't pop when operated. I'm half temped to build, but given the short timeframe and all the other work I got going on, would welcome a cost-effective plug-n-play solution here.
OK, I know that was a mother of all long messages, hope you don't mind that, as an engineer for me more info is helpful and I welcome ideas for success on any of the above. Thanks & Best,
Jam