CO2 Jet Questions

[jstroming]

Hi guys,

I am looking into purchasing a co2 jet system, and was wondering what trouble I might run into in a few different areas...I am looking into a Le Maitre system (4 heads), but am up for ideas. I am based in the United States. Obviously this is an exploratory thing so I just want some opinions about where I might run into problems.

1> Hotel Ballrooms. I mostly do shows in Hotel Ballrooms, where it seems venues are increasingly giving me problems about my DF-50 hazers (mostly because the engineering staff in some of these hotels would rather just say "no" than find an answer). Will a co2 system give me more problems from the hotels? Would their concerns be warranted? I'm assuming someone has tricks (MSDS sheets, etc) up there sleeves if someone gives them a hard time? Also, am I more or less likely to need a "fire watch" with the inclusion of a co2 system? I know this is HIGHLY dependent on the venue, but any tips would be appreciated.

2> Transportation. All of my equipment transports on 53' tractor-trailers, and I am trying to figure out Hazmat requirements (if there are any). One of my drivers has a Hazmat endorsement, however I don't even know if this falls into the Hazmat category of the DOT rules. Of course the government jargon on the DOT's website has been no help.

3> Safety. How safe are these things? Everyone I've spoken to from different manufacturers insist they are extremely safe, as long as the saftey minimums (distance from audience, no direct exposure, etc) are met. One guy told me "wedding dj's use these all the time". HAHA Obviously that doesn't make me too secure. What do you think? I would shoot these from the decks pointing straight up (most likely), with my rig height between 14-20 feet off the decks, and hotel ballroom ceiling directly above that. Is there any chance of me making marks on the ballroom ceiling?

Thanks for all your help. For some reason most of the manufacturers I'm finding online are in the UK/Europe. Any suggestions for US distributors?

Again, Thanks,
Jeff

 

[bdkdesigns]

I can't speak for the rest of your post, but the reasoning behind the UK hits is that Le Maitre is only in the UK now. It appears as though the company split in two. The American (well, Canadian technically) branch is now called Ultratec FX.

 

[Footer]

I don't think you need a full hazmat to transport the C02 tanks. I have moved argon tanks by tractor/trailer many times without an issue, but then again that is an inert gas. I would talk to your gas company that you are renting from on the exact rules. If you are taking things into the city, there might be additional restrictions. You might have to have the truck placarded. I know they did when they moved my welding tanks. C02 is a class 2.2 non flammable gas, so it should not be much of an issue.

 

[jwl868]

For DOT regs:

PHMSA - Regulations

Click Hazardous Materials Regulations in the middle column. Then go to 49 CFR 171, 172, 173, and 177. Start with the hazardous materials table in 49 CFR 172.101.

Yes, the regs are ponderous, but take the time to go through them.


Joe

 

[len]

Hi guys,

I am looking into purchasing a co2 jet system, and was wondering what trouble I might run into in a few different areas...I am looking into a Le Maitre system (4 heads), but am up for ideas. I am based in the United States. Obviously this is an exploratory thing so I just want some opinions about where I might run into problems.

1> Hotel Ballrooms. I mostly do shows in Hotel Ballrooms, where it seems venues are increasingly giving me problems about my DF-50 hazers (mostly because the engineering staff in some of these hotels would rather just say "no" than find an answer). Will a co2 system give me more problems from the hotels? Would their concerns be warranted? I'm assuming someone has tricks (MSDS sheets, etc) up there sleeves if someone gives them a hard time? Also, am I more or less likely to need a "fire watch" with the inclusion of a co2 system? I know this is HIGHLY dependent on the venue, but any tips would be appreciated.

I think it's a combination of not wanting to, and the fact that a lot of hotels, etc., hire an outside AV company (Swank, PSAV, etc.) and your coming in is a threat to that relationship. If you're bring in 53' trucks, that means it's a fairly large convention hotel, and they should be familiar with large shows already. The best way is to get your client (or whoever is paying the hotel) involved so that the hotel remembers what is at stake for them (money).

2> Transportation. All of my equipment transports on 53' tractor-trailers, and I am trying to figure out Hazmat requirements (if there are any). One of my drivers has a Hazmat endorsement, however I don't even know if this falls into the Hazmat category of the DOT rules. Of course the government jargon on the DOT's website has been no help.

Sorry, no help with that.

3> Safety. How safe are these things? Everyone I've spoken to from different manufacturers insist they are extremely safe, as long as the saftey minimums (distance from audience, no direct exposure, etc) are met. One guy told me "wedding dj's use these all the time". HAHA Obviously that doesn't make me too secure. What do you think? I would shoot these from the decks pointing straight up (most likely), with my rig height between 14-20 feet off the decks, and hotel ballroom ceiling directly above that. Is there any chance of me making marks on the ballroom ceiling?

I doubt it, but it's something to ask the mfg. I would also contact The Effects Company (or is it the FX company?). The Effects Company - Special Effects - Smoke Machines - Aroma Effects Machines - England, UK I saw them doing something with CO2 before. As far as I know the big danger with CO2 is that it pushes the oxygen out of the room so you need to monitor that.

As for wedding djs, I doubt that any of them are involved in something like this. I know a lot of them, and this is not something 99.9% of them could not pull off.

 

[mrb]

you need to check local regulations, and check with the fire department if you plan on dispensing a large volume of compressed (or liquid) gas into a room. Often oxygen level monitoring is required. It is important to know the volume of the room you are in, how much gas you are dispensing, and what sort of co2 levels you are going to end up with.

It is my opinion that these co2 and LN2 systems on the market are quite hazardous unless used by trained individuals (same as pyro) and we are just in a situation where regulation (and enforcement) hasnt caught up with the market as often happens.

couple things pasted from wikipedia
Carbon dioxide content in fresh air (averaged between sea-level and 10 hPa level, i.e. about 30 km altitude) varies between 0.036% (360 ppm) and 0.039% (390 ppm), depending on the location[40].

Prolonged exposure to moderate concentrations can cause acidosis and adverse effects on calcium phosphorus metabolism resulting in increased calcium deposits in soft tissue. Carbon dioxide is toxic to the heart and causes diminished contractile force.[39]

Toxicity and its effects increase with the concentration of CO2, here given in volume percent of CO2 in the air:

1%, as can occur in a crowded auditorium with poor ventilation, can cause drowsiness with prolonged exposure.[2]
At 2% it is mildly narcotic and causes increased blood pressure and pulse rate, and causes reduced hearing.[39]
At about 5% it causes stimulation of the respiratory centre, dizziness, confusion and difficulty in breathing accompanied by headache and shortness of breath.[39]
At about 8% it causes headache, sweating, dim vision, tremor and loss of consciousness after exposure for between five and ten minutes.[39]

Due to the health risks associated with carbon dioxide exposure, the U.S. Occupational Safety and Health Administration says that average exposure for healthy adults during an eight-hour work day should not exceed 5,000 ppm (0.5%). The maximum safe level for infants, children, the elderly and individuals with cardio-pulmonary health issues is significantly less. For short-term (under ten minutes) exposure, the U.S. National Institute for Occupational Safety and Health (NIOSH) and American Conference of Government Industrial Hygienists (ACGIH) limit is 30,000 ppm (3%). NIOSH also states that carbon dioxide concentrations exceeding 4% are immediately dangerous to life and health.[41]

 

[inteillusions]

Ultratec's jets are nice but really expensive, you can find them a lot cheaper online, and they usually come from overseas, and they work just as good.

The units themselves are safe its all in how they are operated. As with any LSG or c02 enhanced low lying fog prolonged exposure to the gas will cause dizziness and nausia. It is a cryogenic, which means liquid is below 0 degrees and will cause frostbite and freeze anything it comes into direct contact with. By the time it reaches the end of the nozzle though the liquid has turned to gas expanding giving you the columns of "fog". A rule of thumb that I use especially for actors that arent used to it is 5' from the unit when it is operating. The density and height of the plume is realative to the humidity in the air, the more humid the thicker, richer the column will be. A typical height for the column is around 15'-20'. As for ballrooms you shouldnt have any problem, most hotels run their air handling units all the time anyways so any gas will be sucked out and pushed away anyways. You shouldnt need to do more than like 30 secs with the unit full on and that would be doing something like a reveal. These units work well when shot in bursts, it gives that mushroom top to it, you can even chase them for an additonal effect.

As far as transporting, you do not need any hazmat license or placards to transport 4 tanks of c02. My recomendation would be to rent the tanks and have them delivered directly to the venue. 1. This saves you time and money from trying to hunt down a gas supplier, take it to them, and get it filled. 2, It is becoming more common that suppliers will not fill owned tanks because of liability of tanks not being properly maintained or inspected so if you run into this situation you are stuck running around trying to find someone to fill your owned tank and might end up having to rent anyways. Remember to always order extra, as with any effects the client, production team, or hotel may require to do a demo for any talent, rehersal, etc whatever the case may be so you want to be prepared to do so.

This is not a regulated effect, but always make sure to be aware of your surroundings when using this. For example if flames effects are being used on the same show, c02 releases oxygen which everyone knows helps fire. Hope this helped. If you need anything else PM me.

 

[jstroming]

Thanks for the info....I actually did pretty much exactly what you suggested, I use AirGas as my tour supplier. I got the solenoids from Sigma Services out of Florida. It was a little more expensive but they were great answering my questions and helping me out.

inteillusions....can you recommend any websites for purchasing?

 

[inteillusions]

I recently found some from CHINA-EFFECTS | Manufacturer of stage special effects they are nice and compact, and can be run via dmx or straight 120V power so you have the flexability to adapt to whatever enviroment you are in. Airgas is good because I believe they are nationwide. What tour are you doing?

 

[jwl868]

...As far as transporting, you do not need any hazmat license or placards to transport 4 tanks of c02. ...



...For example if flames effects are being used on the same show, c02 releases oxygen which everyone knows helps fire.

1. Regarding the transport of compressed carbon dioxide (compressed gas - Hazard Class 2.2), can you cite the exemption or exception for the placarding?

2. Is the second item stated correctly? Carbon dioxide is stable (and is used in fire extinguishers). It’s not a source of oxygen under normal conditions.


Joe

 

[SHARYNF]

There are different rules for transporting in a passenger car

Part 177.870: Regulations for passenger carrying vehicles. - Federal Motor Carrier Safety Administration

If you are under 99 pounds gross weight you are ok, and since it is division 2.2 that is the only requirement

You are correct that co2 is used to put out a fire, and will not add O2

Sharyn

 

[jwl868]

Thanks for the citation.

But paragraph (a) leads in with: "In addition to the regulations in parts 170–189 of this subchapter the following requirements shall apply to vehicles transporting passengers and property."

[Emphasis added.]



Joe

 

[inteillusions]

1. Regarding the transport of compressed carbon dioxide (compressed gas - Hazard Class 2.2), can you cite the exemption or exception for the placarding?

2. Is the second item stated correctly? Carbon dioxide is stable (and is used in fire extinguishers). It’s not a source of oxygen under normal conditions.


Joe

Quoted from ECFR " c) Exception for less than 454 kg (1,001 pounds). Except for bulk packagings and hazardous materials subject to §172.505, when hazardous materials covered by table 2 of this section are transported by highway or rail, placards are not required on—

(1) A transport vehicle or freight container which contains less than 454 kg (1001 pounds) aggregate gross weight of hazardous materials covered by table 2 of paragraph (e) of this section; or(2) A rail car loaded with transport vehicles or freight containers, none of which is required to be placarded.

Just like with 1.4g Fireworks, even though they are classified as an explosive as long as you are carrying under 1001 pounds, then the vehicle does not need to be placarded.

The second statement is a typo I was trying to multi-task and do 2 things at once, however I have seen where a jet was just next to a flame bar oxygen was depleting from the flame source by c02, jets stopped and flame regained oxygen and created a flash before returning to normal working order.

 

[jwl868]

Thanks for the citation.

Looks like 49 CFR 172.504.


Joe

 

[kendal69]

Bypass the A?V company that is jerking you around and get the word from the fire department. You may have to pay for a FIRE WATCH, whereas a hotel person stand in the ballroom during the time the hazers are on and the smoke detectors are OFF.

Not a problem I do it all the time, but if the hotel wants to jerk you around they will, but the more knowledge you have the less they will jerk you around.

 

[Cryogenifex]

Hey guys just wanted to answer a few of the questions in this topic:

1> Hotel Ballrooms=The use of Co2 is safe considering 450ml/min of CO2 are expired per person per minute.

2> Transportation=As long as you are not carrying more than 1,000lbs. you are safe. If you are carrying more you are required to have hazmat placards.

3> Safety=When used properly this effect it totally safe. However you do need to consider that LCo2 is -60F.

Another topic I found is where to buy. Most manufacturers are not in the USA, however I recommend www.cryogenifex.com because their products are made in the USA and are very high quality/cost competitive.

Hope this helps!

--Greg

 

[avkid]

Call the Highway Patrol or NYC DOT.
They seem to make up their own laws as they see fit.

 

[skienblack]

3> Safety=When used properly this effect it totally safe. However you do need to consider that LCo2 is -60F.

How would someone become more educated about the safe use of CO2 in an entertainment manner?

 

[Cryogenifex]

How would someone become more educated about the safe use of CO2 in an entertainment manner?

What specific questions do you have? Also are you familiar with MSDS? That would be a great source for being educated on Co2.

 

[CrisCole]

As for wedding djs, I doubt that any of them are involved in something like this. I know a lot of them, and this is not something 99.9% of them could not pull off.

I've cited many Wedding and Party DJs for using a CO2 fire extinguisher to accomplish the same effect.

Stupid idea.