New wiring

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Sorry, wouldn't have a clue where to get such things in the States. Try electrical wholesalers or find a data cabler and ask them who their supplier is.

I used to work for a large scale fiber installer. There are two ways you can go. You can get pre-terminated runs and simply pull that. Fiber does have very special considerations when it is pulled and terminated. It is possible to terminate yourself but that requires a great deal of skill. Nearly everyone uses a fusion splicer to do their terminations. You could pull the cable and then have a company come in and do the terminations. They can also test the lines for you and give you a cert of the quality of the lines if you so desire. I would highly suggest that you go this route and have them install hard termination points that are sealed on both ends. With fiber, it needs to be a bit more robust then just a cable coming out of the wall.

 

[MisterTim]

I used to work for a large scale fiber installer. There are two ways you can go. You can get pre-terminated runs and simply pull that. Fiber does have very special considerations when it is pulled and terminated. It is possible to terminate yourself but that requires a great deal of skill. Nearly everyone uses a fusion splicer to do their terminations. You could pull the cable and then have a company come in and do the terminations. They can also test the lines for you and give you a cert of the quality of the lines if you so desire. I would highly suggest that you go this route and have them install hard termination points that are sealed on both ends. With fiber, it needs to be a bit more robust then just a cable coming out of the wall.

I do realise this, but I don't think I'm going to go with fiber. Too much PITA just to have uncompressed 1080p.


Should I be using shielded cat6? I know I'll need to separate the A/V lines and the cat6 lines in the ceiling, but considering I will be potentially sending data and A/V both over cat6, do I need to go with FTP?

 

[EricE]

Another old thread, but I think this is worth pointing out for anyone else that may be reading:

Other than fiber, as pretty much everyone has said, run as much Cat-5/6 as you can reasonably afford. Because of how much of it is out in the world, more and more things are being adapted to be able to run over it.

I just want to point out something that a cable installer pointed out for us when I was with a different organization and we were building out a new building. With fiber (and with cat5/6 to a lesser extent) the bulk of the expense is with termination. If you are going to go through all that effort to pull a cable bundle, throwing in a couple strands of fiber with some large loops at either end can possibly come in handy at some point - for example, DVI extenders for video are limited in the distance they can go over copper (even cat6), but DVI can go much farther on optical.

And if the space above is that hard to work with, it might be worth investigating putting in some conduit. If you are pretty certain this will be the last time you have to pull cable, then it may not be worth it - but we all know how that goes

 

[EricE]

Should I be using shielded cat6? I know I'll need to separate the A/V lines and the cat6 lines in the ceiling, but considering I will be potentially sending data and A/V both over cat6, do I need to go with FTP?

Not automatically. Any A/V sent over the cat6 will be converted to low-voltage digital and be very similar to data signaling like Ethernet (what it is basically).

 

[museav]

Not automatically. Any A/V sent over the cat6 will be converted to low-voltage digital and be very similar to data signaling like Ethernet (what it is basically).

There seems to possibly be some lack of differentiation between streaming or networked media and audio/video over UTP. Streaming media is converted to network data and run over a network. However, with a few exceptions audio and video over UTP approaches are not Ethernet and cannot be run through Ethernet devices and most audio and video over UTP devices are simply adapting to the the cabling, they are not doing any A/D or anything like that. So many/most VGA, component video, analog audio, etc. over UTP devices and applications have nothing to do with digital signals or Ethernet.

 

[EricE]

most audio and video over UTP devices are simply adapting to the the cabling, they are not doing any A/D or anything like that. So many/most VGA, component video, analog audio, etc. over UTP devices and applications have nothing to do with digital signals or Ethernet.

True, they are not related to ethernet as far as "speaking" ethernet, but they do packetize (digitize) the data and use the same physical layer principles in their signaling. That's how they get the distance. Well, the better units anyway. Here is one of the best explanations I found in a few moments of googling:

http://www.zektor.com/support/downloads/ClearingUpTheHDBaseTTechnicalFUD-1.pdf

That HDBaseT is interesting technology since it claims to co-exist with 100MB ethernet on the same cable - could be really handy for running signals where you have existing network cable. They also have a multiplexing function with their switch which, as they point out, would be very handy for digital signage. We have been contemplating more digital signage and I was looking at these splitters since they have the extenders and audio integrated: Network Technologies HDTV Digital Audio Splitter Component Video Distribution Amplifier. I have an 8 input x 4 output video matrix switch and a few extenders from them and I am very pleased with the quality and pricing of their gear.

I will have to read up on this HDBaseT more - daisy chaining would be far easier than home running each connection back to a traditional splitter.

Anyway, I could have been a little more clear that the fundamentals of the techniques are the same but unrelated to ethernet or TCP/IP (although there are, of course, units that will do video over TCP/IP - pricy tho!)

 

[Chris15]

True, they are not related to ethernet as far as "speaking" ethernet, but they do packetize (digitize) the data and use the same physical layer principles in their signaling. That's how they get the distance. Well, the better units anyway. Here is one of the best explanations I found in a few moments of googling:

http://www.zektor.com/support/downloads/ClearingUpTheHDBaseTTechnicalFUD-1.pdf

That HDBaseT is interesting technology since it claims to co-exist with 100MB ethernet on the same cable - could be really handy for running signals where you have existing network cable. They also have a multiplexing function with their switch which, as they point out, would be very handy for digital signage. We have been contemplating more digital signage and I was looking at these splitters since they have the extenders and audio integrated: Network Technologies HDTV Digital Audio Splitter Component Video Distribution Amplifier. I have an 8 input x 4 output video matrix switch and a few extenders from them and I am very pleased with the quality and pricing of their gear.

I will have to read up on this HDBaseT more - daisy chaining would be far easier than home running each connection back to a traditional splitter.

Anyway, I could have been a little more clear that the fundamentals of the techniques are the same but unrelated to ethernet or TCP/IP (although there are, of course, units that will do video over TCP/IP - pricy tho!)

HUH?!?!

Only the very few transmission systems at the pointy end of the market are digitising signals that are not already digital. The VAST majority are essentially unbalanced to balanced converters (either transformers or active equivalents) at the transmitter end and balanced to unbalanced at the receiving end. You may then have the "extra" signals - DDC, the Sync lines depending on video format and specific implementation being multiplexed.

HDBaseT, based on the white paper you linked to, is ONLY relevant to digital signals a la HDMI. The description of coexistence with ethernet is misleading. Ethernet is being tunnelled just like the TMDS signals for HDMI. There is an ethernet fallback mode implemented, but that activates only when a HDBaseT connection cannot be negotiated.

I certainly did not get the impression that HDBaseT could do a daisy chain topology, it's point to point like Ethernet based on what I read.

Is it set to be a really cool technology? Absolutely! Especially the PoE esque properties, but at this stage it's not widely enough implemented to have seen the price point come down to what us mere mortals can afford...

 

[museav]

True, they are not related to ethernet as far as "speaking" ethernet, but they do packetize (digitize) the data and use the same physical layer principles in their signaling. That's how they get the distance. Well, the better units anyway. Here is one of the best explanations I found in a few moments of googling:

http://www.zektor.com/support/downloads/ClearingUpTheHDBaseTTechnicalFUD-1.pdf

HDBaseT and AVB are becoming increasingly common and may be much more relevant in the future, but audio and video over UTP still often only involves the transmission of the signal over a different type of cable and it is very common that audio and video sent over the CAT5/5e/6 is not converted to low-voltage digital signals or similar to data signaling like Ethernet.

I have a current project that uses RJ jacks and UTP cable for six different forms of audio and video signal transmission (over UTP, CobraNet, HDBaseT, network streaming, analog phone (POTS) interface and IP based conferencing), in some cases with all of them used in a single room (and in some rooms also with CAT7 connectivity for whatever the future may hold). Combine that with three separate related networks (data, AV control and streaming rich media) and while it may be great to have everything using one type of cable and connector, there seems to be more potential confusion than ever regarding what can or cannot connect to a jack. Until we truly get to where anything can plug into any jack, I almost wish that HDBaseT and AVB would look at application specific connectors to help differentiate the use.

That HDBaseT is interesting technology since it claims to co-exist with 100MB ethernet on the same cable - could be really handy for running signals where you have existing network cable.

Yes, but I think that may stem from the fact that HDBaseT is at least currently based on compatibility with HDMI and HDMI v1.4 incorporates 100Mbps Ethernet. I personally find the high power PoE capability interesting, the idea of one cable carrying everything including power presents some interesting options.

 

[chausman]

... the idea of one cable carrying everything including power presents some interesting options.

But then again, there is the possibility that someone will not realize what all is in that one cable and cause some horrible problem because something is getting power that it doesn't need.

I do like the idea though. Much neater then a power cable, an audio cable, a video cable, and a network cable.

 

[Chris15]

But then again, there is the possibility that someone will not realize what all is in that one cable and cause some horrible problem because something is getting power that it doesn't need.

Chase, can you please elborate on what you mean here?

 

[Edrick]

Chase, can you please elborate on what you mean here?

My guess would be he's saying if you sent a powered signal down 1/4 from an amp or something and connected a device that didn't need or want a powered signal you could end up in a situation.

 

[museav]

I think the concept with HDBaseT is much like PoE+, just scaled up to potentially support up to 100W. I don't know enough about the details to know if/how the 'PoE' source device would know that power should be sent to the connected device or what would happen if it was sent to a non-HDBaseT device.

 

[Chris15]

IEEE 802.3af, the standardised form of PoE, has a mechanism in place to prevent the application of power to a non PoE device.
It looks for a signature resistance of about 25k across the powered pairs and without it will not apply power.
802.3at operates in exactly the same manner.

If we take a look at Crestron's HDBaseT implementation, DigitalMedia 8G+, they are providing the PoE by tacking a standard 802.3af power supply through a secondary port on the switcher cards.
I thus conclude that HDBaseT is using 802.3af / 802.3at as the power technology unmodified. af had no data layer communication, though at has added that in as a layer 2 LLDP communication. I anticipate adding that functionality to the HDBaseT protocol stack is a trivial thing.

The other reason why it would make sense to use standard PoE for HDBaseT relates to it's ethernet fallback mode. If the device is fundamentally PoE, then it can operate as a PoE device when operating under fallback mode.

Say you have a BluRay player that's HDBaseT enabled and you don't want to use HDBaseT, using HDMI say instead. You can connect it to ethernet for control or to stream YouTube or whatever and still have what's now the LAN connection powering the whole unit up...

When this gets deployed into say security cameras things will get fun, especially if they are IP streaming concurrent with HDBaseT output, use in "fallback mode" for a more conventional use or connect HDBaseT for a more AV use... Or use both concurrently...

 

[chausman]

Chase, can you please elborate on what you mean here?

Go and plug the output from an amp into your mixer. Things might get a little interesting!

I'm saying that is that while it may look great to have everything in one cable for onstage, I wouldn't want to have someone not realize that "the internet cable over there" was also carrying power for something, and connect their old Compaq laptop in it that couldn't handle the "extra stuff". People will assume "I have those all over my house, it does...". Better yet, you may know about the PoE type connections throughout the space, but what if you don't work there until the building is condemned, or the wiring is re-done.

Thanks, Museav! I know I read most of the above from one(or more) of your posts from somewhere else!