LED suggestion for house lights

[JChenault]

I'm looking to specify some LED units for our houselights. The intent is ( as part of a remodel) to replace the <expletive deleted> R30 floods that keep burning out, with something that will not burn out, and that we can control more easily using our console.

My working plan is to surface mount some kind of unit on the ceiling pointing down for house lights. ( We could recess if necessary )

So what's important to us?
1 - No fan.
2 - DMX control.
3 - Not just RGB or RGBA. IE we want a white circuit in there. I would prefer a warm / cool white - but I will take RGBAW - or RGBW if that is what it takes.
4 - An intensity channel in the DMX map.
5 - Smooth dimming curve. No stepping in the low ranges.
6 - Reasonable beam spread ( reasonable being around 30 to 40 degrees ). Our ceiling is fairly low - about 18 feet.
7 - Some way to reduce glare from the unit. Either put in hexcell or a top hat.

The units I have found so far:
Elation ELED DW Par56. Too narrow a beam spread. Color temp is high ( Their warm is 3000K)

Apollo HP5-70. Nice beam spread. No fan, no way to control Glare.

Altman Spectra series. 1Q38. A bit high in color temp ( 3000K minimum). Not clear what beam spreads available. They do support options for hexcel accessories, etc.

Chauvet Colorado 1VWTour Nice range of color. The warm white is 2700K. Reasonable beam/field. Can't tell if there is a fan and no way to control glare.


Anyone have other suggestions?

Thanks in advance for the help.

 

[emoreth]

I've seen DMX controllable white LEDs designed for house lighting, but they cost about $1000 per unit. If you have the cash, they're supposed to be pretty good -- MoMa NY uses them. (Wish I could tell you who makes them, but I can't remember at the moment.)

 

[SteveB]

Just curious as to how useful the RGB will be ?.

Do they focus straight down onto the audience seating ?, and are you in need of colors ?. Do you have that now ?.

I ask as I can't see making the seating area all red, as example. Maybe fun to play with and fun to demo., but how many old farts are going to complain that they can't read the program.

In any event, ETC makes a set of Desire fixtures, the D40 Studio is their white light version.

http://www.etcconnect.com/docs/docs_downloads/datashts/7410L1002_Selador_D40_Studio_Spec_Sht_vF.PDF

 

[Call911]

Just curious as to how useful the RGB will be ?.

Do they focus straight down onto the audience seating ?, and are you in need of colors ?. Do you have that now ?.

I ask as I can't see making the seating area all red, as example. Maybe fun to play with and fun to demo., but how many old farts are going to complain that they can't read the program.

In any event, ETC makes a set of Desire fixtures, the D40 Studio is their white light version.

http://www.etcconnect.com/docs/docs_downloads/datashts/7410L1002_Selador_D40_Studio_Spec_Sht_vF.PDF

Likewise, can you imagine looking up at the lights and seeing all the pretty colors. I think it would look pretty tacky, and a waste of money. They make dimable led flood lights now available at your local Home Depot or Lowes. All sorts of degrees and brightnesses.

 

[Morte615]

Instead of buying entire new fixtures why not just replace the lamps with LED or CFL versions? (links to Google Shopping to purchase.)
LED would last longer and use less electricity, but will cost more. CFL will still use less electricity than incandescent but more than LED's but are cheaper.

 

[chausman]

Instead of buying entire new fixtures why not just replace the lamps with LED or CFL versions? (links to Google Shopping to purchase.)
LED would last longer and use less electricity, but will cost more. CFL will still use less electricity than incandescent but more than LED's but are cheaper.

CFLs usually don't dim well though.

 

[SteveB]

Likewise, can you imagine looking up at the lights and seeing all the pretty colors. I think it would look pretty tacky, and a waste of money. They make dimable led flood lights now available at your local Home Depot or Lowes. All sorts of degrees and brightnesses.

But "dimmable" only to a point. Like CFL's' the typical LED running at line voltage have poor response at the lower intensities, which is where "House to a glow" usually wants to be.

 

[elliot47]

I'm glad I read this... We have older house lights that bulbs are not made for anymore. We are now out of replacemrnt bulbs so the next time a bulb goes out he have to out in brand new house lights.

 

[gafftapegreenia]

There is this from The Light Source

LED Dimming 100 Watt Fresnel House Light

L&E also has a product

Flood Lights

 

[Edrick]

I feel people are missing the code requirements for a public venue space. I'm pretty sure just slapping up some theatrical RGB led cans will not be acceptable.

How big of a venue is this? How will you be getting power to these cans? DMX? Who will be installing them?

 

[techieman33]

I 2nd just replacing your current lamps with led unit's. We've played with a couple of 2700k lights and were happy with their performance, both output and foot candles.

 

[Les]

I'm glad I read this... We have older house lights that bulbs are not made for anymore. We are now out of replacemrnt bulbs so the next time a bulb goes out he have to out in brand new house lights.

Assuming the fixtures are in good condition, you could just see if they can replace the sockets with something a little more current (but NOT a mini-can base. Those lamps do not hold up in house light applications!). I know that a refurb isn't as fun, but...

More on the mini-can lamps -- the high school I went to had a newly renovated fine arts wing. The auditorium house lights were (are still) black cylindrical pendants with EVR lamps... About 50 of them (~1200 seats w/balcony). At any given time, about 2/3 of the house lights would be out. Even after a relamp, we would still lose them left and right (didn't help that the lights were on more time than not). During one relamp, they drilled holes in the tops of the fixtures in a crude attempt to ventilate them, and used self-tapping screws to attach hardware cloth (mesh) inside the reflector to contain lamp fragments in the event of a rupture/super-nova event. Why the fixtures didn't already have this, I do not know. It may have helped, but it couldn't have been much. In the off-chance that I find myself there, they usually have the same burnout situation we did with a small percentage of the house lights actually functional. They have to hire in a company with a straddle lift to do the relamp. I remember the process taking about two days each time.

 

[techieman33]

Assuming the fixtures are in good condition, you could just see if they can replace the sockets with something a little more current (but NOT a mini-can base. Those lamps do not hold up in house light applications!). I know that a refurb isn't as fun, but...

More on the mini-can lamps -- the high school I went to had a newly renovated fine arts wing. The auditorium house lights were (are still) black cylindrical pendants with EVR lamps... About 50 of them (~1200 seats w/balcony). At any given time, about 2/3 of the house lights would be out. Even after a relamp, we would still lose them left and right (didn't help that the lights were on more time than not). During one relamp, they drilled holes in the tops of the fixtures in a crude attempt to ventilate them, and used self-tapping screws to attach hardware cloth (mesh) inside the reflector to contain lamp fragments in the event of a rupture/super-nova event. Why the fixtures didn't already have this, I do not know. It may have helped, but it couldn't have been much. In the off-chance that I find myself there, they usually have the same burnout situation we did with a small percentage of the house lights actually functional. They have to hire in a company with a straddle lift to do the relamp. I remember the process taking about two days each time.

We don't have many problems with our EVR lamps, the GE lamps seem to do better than the sylvania lamps. We always use the GE, unfortunately they had a problem with manufacturing them and we had to buy a case of the sylvanias, a couple of them were done in under 100 hours of use, we may have just gotten a bad batch though. Another thing we do to help extend lamp life is set our full setting in the house lights to 95%.

 

[dj41354]

See also this previous thread about LED house lights:
http://www.controlbooth.com/forums/lighting-electrics/25585-led-house-lights.html

 

[SteveB]

I feel people are missing the code requirements for a public venue space. I'm pretty sure just slapping up some theatrical RGB led cans will not be acceptable.

How big of a venue is this? How will you be getting power to these cans? DMX? Who will be installing them?

Yup, big heads up on this. If your current system is the ONLY lighting for the space and it qualifies as the "emergency" lighting, you will want to re-think this, or think it thru differently so as to provide for an emergency system when needed. If you have a separate and stand-alone flood light system, then the dimmable house lighting is essentially just another segment of the performance lighting and you can modify to your hearts content.

 

[JChenault]

Thanks for the replies. Some clarification.

The current house lights are essentially track lights with R30 lamps in them. The ceiling is between 18 and 20 feet from the auditorium floor ( depending on where you are in the house).

The dimming of the house lights is currently via wall type dimmers ( IE no DMX control ). One advantage of LED units is that we would not have to incur the costs of an additional fixed rack.

We anticipate having to remove the existing lighting anyway as part of the remodel.

I don't think a retro fit to 'Home Depot' LED lamps works due to the issues noted. They will not dim all the way out, and we would have to install DMX dimmers to control them in any event.

The house lights are not the emergency exit lights. These are battery backed up floods.

If we end up with an RGBW type unit, I do not anticipate using the RGB part except to tweak the perceived color temperature of the lamp. IE I am not expecting to put any kind of intense colors in the house.

The work will be done by licensed electricians and will meet applicable codes. Even if I were so inclined, neither my architect or the city would let us do anything else.

I am resistant to the higher power units ( ETC Desire ) as we have a short throw and want to keep the glare down. A larger number of lower power units will work better than a smaller number of high power units.

I really don't want to see the the standard 'LED bunch of tiny light look' in the ceiling of the house.


Thanks for the link to the 'Light Source' product. I will take a deeper look at them.

 

[gafftaper]

I went to a conference session at LDI last year about Greening up the theater. They strongly urged people to explore LED replacement PAR's as the most economical solution to your problem. Yes there is a bit of a blink on and off at the very end of the dimming curve, but they felt that most audiences aren't really going to notice or care. It's something that bothers you and I because we are in tune to lighting, but most people aren't. The people on the panel said that once you get used to it, it's not a big deal. They were talking about replacing with just off the shelf "Home Depot" products.

Note my experience with CFL's as a house light was very poor. I recommend extreme caution with them. The problem is that they have a significant warm up time. The ones in my old theater would blink on and be very dim and pink for over a minute as they gradually warmed up to a bright white. That was simply not acceptable.

 

[Beans45601]

Anyone know of any of those Light Source units in the wild? They look great. My faith in L&E was destroyed earlier this year, which is too bad, those look good too.

There is this from The Light Source

LED Dimming 100 Watt Fresnel House Light

L&E also has a product

Flood Lights

 

[gripguy]

Hey all

If you are looking for an LED track light try The Black Tank.
RGB or W\C White and have a track mount option and are of course DMXable.

The Black Tank High Power Compact LED Fixtures

Gripguy

 

[Morte615]

Those seem like an interesting product, has anyone used them before?
I like the fact that they can be installed on Track as well as the flexibility of mounting.