Conventional Fixtures ETC goes BakPak !

[derekleffew]

...Another thing I'm interested in... The ETC link seems to be selling this "special dimmer" as the cure for lamp sing. ...

I'm not sure that's true. I see where they say the DIMMER is "absolutely quiet (0dBA at 1m)", but they conveniently don't mention lamp noise (that I noticed). Heretofore, one of the concerns against "dimmer at the fixture" was acoustic noise from the dimmer itself. ETC indicates that they have eliminated that particular concern.

... Would putting the dimmer on the instrument help reduce lamp sing, or could you, in theory, have this "special dimmer" back stage in a rack and accomplish the same thing?

Attaching the dimmer to the yoke has no effect on lamp sing. Placing single dimmers remotely defeats many of the labor and materials advantages. Me?, I still want my dimmers and data distribution in a dimmer room! (in most cases). I prefer "smart" devices on the ground, and only "dumb" wiring going in the air. As someone said above, maybe RDM / ACN will stage my mindset. Eventually.

I suspect the whole "230V dimmer [-]attached[/-] permanently-wired to the burner assembly" is a CE (European) code/safety issue, as they're using a non-standard (for the locale) lamp. Akin to how Dimmer Doubling is supposed to use L5-15 connectors.

-----

...2. The European 230V version offers the ability to use 115V HPL lamps in 230V markets. This results is a huge boost in photometric performance due to the smaller filament size of the 115V lamp. ...

A shot across the bow to those manufacturers touting condenser optics in their 1200 and 2000W, 230V profile spot s.

3. THE ES750 version of the dimmer comes with connectors on both the input and output to allow use with other types of fixtures. ...

It's unfortunate that etcconnect.com currently concentrates solely on the 230V version, and has no information at all on the ES750. Obviously ETC cares only about Europe, and has abandoned the US market. I'll continue my search for an AMERICAN manufacturer, one the serves AMERICAN interests. Anyone want to bet on how long before Leviton introduces a backpack dimmer?

-----

(For those who didn't read the wiki article distributed dimming) I thought this pertinent, from High rollers: The roster of Las Vegas players , written fifteen(!) years ago:

And despite the fact that distributed dimmers have become reliable, the market has been slow to adopt them en masse. Perhaps we will have to wait for the arrival of two new advances to finally and fairly evaluate distributed dimming: dimmer in the fixture, to completely avoid a separate dimming device, and the advent of cheap, reliable wireless data transmission technology, to get rid of all those pesky data cables! Both these advances should be just around the corner.

• "dimmer IN the fixture": 230V version, with attached lamp cap, is as close as we currently can get.
• "cheap, reliable wireless data transmission technology": It seems that several "less than industry-leading" manufacturers are incorporating wireless DMX into their devices. Where are the leaders?
• "should be just around the corner." Indeed. We were supposed to have flying cars by now.

[Be sure to read the very last paragraph in the article at the link. ]

.

 

[STEVETERRY]

I'm not sure that's true. I see where they say the DIMMER is "absolutely quiet (0dBA at 1m)", but they conveniently don't mention lamp noise (that I noticed). Heretofore, one of the concerns against "dimmer at the fixture" was acoustic noise from the dimmer itself. ETC indicates that they have eliminated that particular concern.

Attaching the dimmer to the yoke has no effect on lamp sing. Placing single dimmers remotely defeats many of the labor and materials advantages. Me?, I still want my dimmers and data distribution in a dimmer room! (in most cases). I prefer "smart" devices on the ground, and only "dumb" wiring going in the air. As someone said above, maybe RDM / ACN will stage my mindset. Eventually.

I suspect the whole "230V dimmer [-]attached[/-] permanently-wired to the burner assembly" is a CE (European) code/safety issue, as they're using a non-standard (for the locale) lamp. Akin to how Dimmer Doubling is supposed to use L5-15 connectors.

-----
A shot across the bow to those manufacturers touting condenser optics in their 1200 and 2000W, 230V profile spot s.

It's unfortunate that etcconnect.com currently concentrates solely on the 230V version, and has no information at all on the ES750. Obviously ETC cares only about Europe, and has abandoned the US market. I'll continue my search for an AMERICAN manufacturer, one the serves AMERICAN interests. Anyone want to bet on how long before Leviton introduces a backpack dimmer?

-----

(For those who didn't read the wiki article distributed dimming) I thought this pertinent, from High rollers: The roster of Las Vegas players , written fifteen(!) years ago:

• "dimmer IN the fixture": 230V version, with attached lamp cap, is as close as we currently can get.
• "cheap, reliable wireless data transmission technology": It seems that several "less than industry-leading" manufacturers are incorporating wireless DMX into their devices. Where are the leaders?
• "should be just around the corner." Indeed. We were supposed to have flying cars by now.

[Be sure to read the very last paragraph in the article at the link. ]

.

Have you had your coffee yet?


S4 Dimmer and HPL lamp together produce 0dBA at 1m.

ST

 

[derekleffew]

S4 Dimmer and HPL lamp together produce 0dBA at 1m.

I stand corrected.

So, let's slap that ES (Electronic Silent) technology into a D20 Sensor module and help out this guy: http://www.controlbooth.com/forums/lighting-electrics/28936-buzzing-fixtures.html .

 

[DrPinto]

I stand corrected.

So, let's slap that ES (Electronic Silent) technology into a D20 Sensor module and help out this guy: http://www.controlbooth.com/forums/lighting-electrics/28936-buzzing-fixtures.html .

I had that thread in mind when I asked about putting this dimmer in a module too.

I see the use of the dimmer-on-instrument setup, but I'm still a fan of keeping the dimmers on the ground or hanging a shoebox dimmer on a pipe when needed.

BTW...how much does this dimmer cost? I haven't seen any talk of price yet.

 

[MNicolai]

Let us not forget that this would be more like a D7, less like a D20. If a lower amperage module is what you want, you can already buy the D10. Historically theatres won't though because even though they'll probably never put more than 1.2kW on a single dimmer in most dimmer-per-circuit installs, they still want the infrastructure in the raceways, cables, wiring, and dimmers for circuits they can run up to 2.4kW per circuit. There also hasn't been much of a price difference between a D20 module and a D10 module to make the D10 approach more desirable for tighter-budget installs.

As for silence, ETC already makes the SineWave dimming racks that are generally unpopular except where absolutely required because:
1) They cost more.
2) One rack can only accommodate half the number of circuits as a standard Sensor rack.

Actually -- now that I examine ETC's website, they seem to have quietly brushed the SineWave racks under the rug. I'll bet if you ask really nicely they'll still make one for you, but you may not be able to get it in a Sensor3 format (unless that's in the works?). Otherwise, sine wave dimming racks may remain as the party all of the dimming manufacturers and some opera houses showed up to but not really anyone else. These distributed dimmer packs may be just what it takes to give sine wave dimming technology a proper face lift though.

 

[techieman33]

With wireless control built in is the only way I could see buying something like this for use when a long cable run would be required otherwise.

 

[MNicolai]

With wireless control built in is the only way I could see buying something like this for use when a long cable run would be required otherwise.

I don't know -- I plenty of times I wouldn't mind having a dozen or so fixtures I could drop anywhere I could get power and DMX to. You really never have any electrics you run low on circuits on? No lighting positions you wish you could add but would need to install a new rack and new wiring to?

For retrofits this is a great little product. Need 12-18 more circuits of dimming? Think of how much easier it is to tell your electrician you just need (6) 20A circuits from whichever panel is the closest and has room for a few more circuit breakers in it. Certainly a lot easier in some cases than pulling wire all the way from the dimming room.

If I need more side booms but don't have enough dimming circuits, I can get a couple 20A non-dim circuits to each boom, then tap into them for 6 more circuits of dimming.

Makes it good for portable applications, retrofits, and "oh, shoot -- I need six more dimmers on Electric #2" situations.

Granted -- you could buy a SmartPack or some shoe box dimmers for the same result, but this is yet another tool in your workshop you can use when the need comes along.

 

[SteveB]

If I need more side booms but don't have enough dimming circuits, I can get a couple 20A non-dim circuits to each boom, then tap into them for 6 more circuits of dimming.

Makes it good for portable applications, retrofits, and "oh, shoot -- I need six more dimmers on Electric #2" situations.

.

Perfect application. Where you have a dimmer module with 2 dimmed circuits, you convert to a relay module. Then pop 6 S4 Dimmers onto those 2 relays, and you have 6 units on separate control. You've just tripled your control.

And if these things power off a dimmer in non-regulated mode, you might not need a relay.

 

[MNicolai]

Perfect application. Where you have a dimmer module with 2 dimmed circuits, you convert to a relay module. Then pop 6 S4 Dimmers onto those 2 relays, and you have 6 units on separate control. You've just tripled your control.

And if these things power off a dimmer in non-regulated mode, you might not need a relay.

Sounds like everything we all liked about dimmer doublers but without all of the things we didn't (77v lamps, twist-lock connectors).

 

[STEVETERRY]

Let us not forget that this would be more like a D7, less like a D20. If a lower amperage module is what you want, you can already buy the D10. Historically theatres won't though because even though they'll probably never put more than 1.2kW on a single dimmer in most dimmer-per-circuit installs, they still want the infrastructure in the raceways, cables, wiring, and dimmers for circuits they can run up to 2.4kW per circuit. There also hasn't been much of a price difference between a D20 module and a D10 module to make the D10 approach more desirable for tighter-budget installs.

As for silence, ETC already makes the SineWave dimming racks that are generally unpopular except where absolutely required because:
1) They cost more.
2) One rack can only accommodate half the number of circuits as a standard Sensor rack.

Actually -- now that I examine ETC's website, they seem to have quietly brushed the SineWave racks under the rug. I'll bet if you ask really nicely they'll still make one for you, but you may not be able to get it in a Sensor3 format (unless that's in the works?). Otherwise, sine wave dimming racks may remain as the party all of the dimming manufacturers and some opera houses showed up to but not really anyone else. These distributed dimmer packs may be just what it takes to give sine wave dimming technology a proper face lift though.

ETC Sensor+ Sine Wave:

--Still prominent on the website
--Still enthusiastically available
--Still the only North American Sine Wave dimmer that works well

Just let us know--how many channels would you like?

Now, Source 4 Dimmer is another animal entirely. It's very quiet (like sine wave) , but it also satisfies the requirements of an entirely new dimmer topology for tungsten loads suggested by the emergence of Solid State Lighting.


ST

 

[Wood4321]

Make an ETC 3 cell HPL 750 Cyc Light (a real cyc light, not a Par bar) with 3 of these integrated and I will buy 45 of them.
To replace the Selecon Hui Cycs which I love for their form factor, but hate for waiting 6-12 weeks for parts from new zealand.
It would be awesome to be able to run a 3 cell cyc on a single 20 amp circuit. (or a single 208, 20 amp circuit)

Steve, I will endeavor to see your presentation on Friday, I am very interested.
Thanks!

 

[derekleffew]

... (or a single 208, 20 amp circuit) ...

Question for Steve: Can the ES750 regulate 208V down to 115V?

Something I encounter quite often... I run all my movers and LEDs at 208V. If I want to add a couple of S4 s (or other) to the position, it means having to add at least an SP6 dimmer pack and another multi-cable and break-out. An ES750 might be an elegant solution. (Not for 8-light s, though. )

-----

Make an ETC 3-cell HPL750 Cyc Light (a real cyc light, not a Par bar) ...

I take it you're not a fan of the MultiPAR for cyc lighting? Many would like to see ETC make a true asymmetric-reflector X7 LED cyclight.

-----

How many times the cost of the fixture is the dimmer?

MSRP for a standard Source Four is $440. MSRP for the 4x10A SmartModule is $845 (AND it has self-terminating DMX!). So one could figure the ES750 might have a list price of 845/4=$211, give or take. Something tells me that's not quite right though.

Look at it another way: an SR48 96x2.4kW dimmer rack can dim 384 575W units, but doesn't cost anywhere near $169,000. Thank goodness.


.

 

[techieman33]

That would have to be a really interesting reflector to lamp a cyc light with an HPL. I doubt we'll ever see it though, I don't see much life left in tungsten cyc lights with so many LED products coming out giving so many more color options.

I've seen 8 lights and 208 try to play and it wasn't pretty. Someone wasn't reading labels and plugged moving light soco into the wrong breakout and poof all 8 lamps were toast. Needless to say the touring electricians were pretty grumpy the rest of the day.

 

[JChenault]

MSRP for a standard Source Four is $440. MSRP for the 4x10A SmartModule is $845 (AND it has self-terminating DMX!). So one could figure the ES750 might have a list price of 845/4=$211, give or take. Something tells me that's not quite right though.

Look at it another way: an SR48 96x2.4kW dimmer rack can dim 384 575W units, but doesn't cost anywhere near $169,000. Thank goodness.

.

On the other hand the cost to install that dimmer rack and pull those 96 circuits Could easily approach 50 to 75K
Running constant power, using something like the BakPac, and only paying for the dimmers you use (have you ever loaded up a rack of 96 dimmers with 348 units? ) might be more economical than you expect, If you are planning a new installation and believe that LEDs are the future, this approach might be very cost effective.

One more thing to check out at LDI

 

[derekleffew]

...Running constant power, using something like the BakPac, and only paying for the dimmers you use ... might be more economical than you expect, If you are planning a new installation and believe that LEDs are the future, this approach might be very cost-effective.

I'd still need/want a way to remotely and conveniently turn on and off the branch circuits,

Just a small suggestion... turn off the power to the fixtures. We should all be aware that when we remove data to our LED fixtures, and leave power on, the fixtures are still running. The power supplies are energized and we all know that electronics have a limited useful life.

We're all spoiled by dimmers since when we turn off the console, all the tungsten [and other] sources turn off. Only the dimmer electronics stay active which is 1-6 devices per rack. The same is not true for LED fixtures.

So I've been on a little bit of a campaign, secretly [not much of a campaign then I guess], to let people know that their LED fixtures, MLs, scrollers, foggers, etc, will all last longer if you remove power from them. We have such a large investment in these devices, it only makes sense to have them around for as long as possible.

Sorry if this blatantly obvious...maybe it can help someone. ...

something more than just a breaker panel. Perhaps one or several SmartSwitch racks, perhaps something else.
Also, as long as were discussing materials and labor installation costs,

... All those panelboards and data-distribution devices have to live somewhere--why not conveniently located in a "dimmer" room?

This follows ST's long-held theory of dimmer economics:

"A dimmer rack is a distribution panel with some free dimmers".

And it's just that, when you factor in the cost of getting from 100,000A of available fault current (on a typical 800A feeder) down to 10,000A of Short Circuit Current Rating on a 20A branch circuit. You can't do it with a single breaker panel, you need many of them--with the associated labor to wire them up.

Do the math with multiple breaker panels and then with modern, high-SCCR dimmer racks: the dimmers are free.

You don't get that with distributed dimmers.

ST

-----

... (have you ever loaded up a rack of 96 dimmers with 348 units? ) ...

Well, no. You've got me there. Me, being the typical and theoretical ideal dimmer user.pdf , for my average production:
17% of the dimmers have no load at all, and go unused
29% have a load of 575W or less,
37% have a load of 576-1500W
17% have a load greater than 1501W

So my average 96 rack runs ~148 575W fixtures.

 

[MNicolai]

ETC Sensor+ Sine Wave:

--Still prominent on the website
--Still enthusiastically available
--Still the only North American Sine Wave dimmer that works well

Just let us know--how many channels would you like?

Now, Source 4 Dimmer is another animal entirely. It's very quiet (like sine wave) , but it also satisfies the requirements of an entirely new dimmer topology for tungsten loads suggested by the emergence of Solid State Lighting.


ST

You may want to talk to your webmaster then, because prominent, it is not.

It's not linked to from Dimming & Switching, so the only way I could find to get to it was by running a search for it. At best, it's buried.

 

[DavidNorth]

Lighting solutions for Theatre, Film & Television Studios and Architectural spaces : ETCYou can find it from the main page by hitting [Dimming and Switching], [Sensor3 Power Control Systems] and it is listed there with all the Sensor3 and Sensor+ options. Not the most logical, but then websites are not always easy to make logical.

Thanks for the heads up.

David

 

[epimetheus]

SmartSwitch

Lighting solutions for Theatre, Film & Television Studios and Architectural spaces : ETC

I believe the breakers are fully rated.


I'm also curious as to which is more cost effective. A larger room full of motorized and DMX controlled standard breaker panels, only having fully rated breakers, or a smaller room with Sensor racks. One of the nice things about the Sensor racks is you get a lot of circuits in very little horizontal space. Standard breaker panels do not make good use of the vertical space in a room and they are generally not designed to stack vertically.

But I agree that I think ETC is thinking long term for when LED's will be much more common. As well, these things might be a hit with the TV and Film location folks.

Thought I should remind everyone that the Smartswitch does not have branch circuit protection. It is just a set of relays in a single enclosure with a common control system. A separate electrical distribution panel is still required. If you need (24) 20A, 120V switched circuits, you need a Smartswitch as well as a distribution panel with (24) 20A, single pole breakers.

I would love to see ETC come out with a product that combines the two, but unfortunately it would be too late for my church's new worship center. We're installing 72 circuits of Smartswitch with the associated 3 electrical panels to support them.

 

[STEVETERRY]

Question for Steve: Can the ES750 regulate 208V down to 115V?

Something I encounter quite often... I run all my movers and LEDs at 208V. If I want to add a couple of S4 s (or other) to the position, it means having to add at least an SP6 dimmer pack and another multi-cable and break-out. An ES750 might be an elegant solution. (Not for 8-light s, though. )
-----

.

Nice idea, but the current product cannot do this. While it has been tested at that voltage, it assumes that it will be fed with:

--An ungrounded conductor (hot)
--A grounded conductor (neutral)
--A grounding conductor (protective ground)

The scenario you describe would have no grounded conductor (neutral), since a 208 feed would be from two ungrounded (hot) conductors, both of which are 120V above ground. The listing of the device does not cover this application. In addition, the filters in the unit expect a grounded (neutral) conductor.

Might we do this? Possibly, if there is sufficient demand.

ST

 

[techieman33]

MSRP for a standard Source Four is $440. MSRP for the 4x10A SmartModule is $845 (AND it has self-terminating DMX!). So one could figure the ES750 might have a list price of 845/4=$211, give or take. Something tells me that's not quite right though.

Look at it another way: an SR48 96x2.4kW dimmer rack can dim 384 575W units, but doesn't cost anywhere near $169,000. Thank goodness.


.

That math doesn't really apply here, even if it did it would be more expensive than 1/4 of the price when you add in the cost of the full case, and the dmx ports. Since this is a different dimming technology though, it doesn't make sense to compare prices like that.