Can my ColorSource 20 control more than 40 dimmers?

[Stevens R. Miller]

It has 40 *channels*. Even if you're addressing single-address devices, though, those can be numbered anywhere in the universe; you simply can't *address* more than 40 of them at the same time.

Perhaps this is part of the learning process for all us noobs, but I am coming to see that the word "channel" is not rigidly used to mean just one thing. The various vendors' Web sites all use it to mean what you just meant, Jay, but they all also use it interchangeably with "address." For example, here's an excerpt from a retailer's copy:

14 reversible faders and an assignable joystick allow for easy programming of up to 12, 32 channel fixtures.
The Obey 70 can store up to 6 sets of chases containing 240 scenes on 384 total channels of control.

And further down the same page, in the specs:

384 DMX channels of control

Now, once you learn that a "DMX channel" is really a "DMX address," in this context, and that a "fixture" is, ultimately, a light (and, therefore, a single fader on the box), you can crack the code and determine that, no matter how many DMX "channels" they say a console can use, it is the number of "fixtures" that limits what you can do. In my setting, I have exactly 48 fixtures making use of exactly 48 DMX addresses. I am not blaming ETC for this, but with the general lack of precision used in pretty much all vendors' advertising copy, I feel it was an understandable mistake for me to think that a device capable of taking control of over 48 DMX "channels" could do what I needed. (And I continue to find it frustrating that the keypads on these consoles could, but for limits imposed by their firmware, easily do what I need.)

Well, like Margaret Fuller, I accept the universe as it is. I just don't always have to like it.

 

[Stevens R. Miller]

I would have to respectfully disagree with the premise that a used express would be beyond the scope of what you are trying to accomplish.
If you are ready to program scenes on subs anyway on another device, you can do that on an express. You can create cheat sheets for more ambitious folk to stretch a little and still be able to restore a backed up show file if it goes awry.

If we were looking to replace the Innovator with comparable tech, the Express might work (but then, so would another Innovator, if we could find one). The problem is, mostly, that the Innovator was way, way too much board for a middle school with no dedicated drama teacher.

I'm reasonably sure that they will be able to find a student who would be thrilled to learn it at least every few classes.

If only that were so. But you can't just turn a kid loose on a lighting board. We have smart kids who want to learn, but it would be a rare middle-schooler who could figure out a console, even a simple one, entirely on their own. And, again, that's where the problem arises: we don't have a teacher assigned to take ownership of the lighting tech. If that changes, all kinds of new options open up. Until then, the last thirteen years have shown that only the simplest tech will actually be used.[/quote]

I would also recommend that having a more flexible console inhouse enhances the revenue that can ask for renting the space to others.

The community theater company I work with stonewalled me when I suggested we rent a high school, instead of a middle school, for our upcoming show. I wanted the high school because it had much better lighting, with three electrics, some fx, and an ETC Element. But the high schools charge twice what the middle schools charge, and we just don't have that in our budget. (FWIW, the old hands in my company say they believe the high school principals deliberately overprice their theaters, because they are pressured to show that they are making them available to help defray operating costs, but they actually don't want anyone to use them, as it conflicts with in-house use and risks damage from incompetent bumblers like me.)

 

[sk8rsdad]

the old hands in my company say they believe the high school principals deliberately overprice their theaters

I can't speak for this particular school but it is my experience that many renters underestimate the effort and expense of operating a theatre. Heat, electricity, cleaning, mortgage, insurance, depreciation, staffing, and many other expenses add up to significant dollars. Then there's the wear and tear on equipment, facilities, and (volunteer) staff to consider, and staff is perhaps the most important. How many evenings and weekends should a TD or custodian be expected to work in any given year? Damages can be near-fatal for a school facility where funding for repair and replacement is difficult.

It is always more profitable to mount our own productions than it is to make the venue available for rent. That said, we have a responsibility to the community and set a rate that is comparable to nearby facilities with steep discounts for community groups so we're operating at a loss when we rent to them.

 

[Stevens R. Miller]

I thought the SmartFade was phased out, or would be very soon.

Following up on this, ETC Tech. Support Spec. Justin Williams (who has been following this thread) told me the following:

The Smartfade has not been discontinued. There is no set end of life date for it at this time either. ETC will always support any product that we make/sell as long as parts are available for it. The Smartfade is still very much sellable and repairable.

ETC provides a freely downloadable simulator that can be used to edit show files imported from and exported back to the actual hardware. I've been playing with that quite a bit today. Looks like a good match to our needs, so far. Slightly more in price than the CS20, but not enough to break the bank. With the much less expensive Scene Setter-48 and the Smartfade 1248, I think I am in a position to present the school with a pair of choices that will both work for them, and let them be the ones to have the last word on what they choose. As we know, cooperation in the workplace is essential, as that is what allows each of us to blame someone else...

 

[Jay Ashworth]

I grew up on a SmartFade 24/96, and I love it to death.

They're even available used on eBay for sane prices (from just below to just above a grand, depending on size, and how long you want to wait for your pitch).

They want nothing to do with multi-channel DMX fixtures, though. Nothing at all.

For that you need the SmartFade ML, which comes at a significant premium ($500-1000 more). I can't speak to how well that one works, never having had my fingers on one.

I would expect that like its older brother, it has the advantage that you can yank a handle and get photons, which is the required characteristic for boards in low-end venues with itinerant operators.

 

[Stevens R. Miller]

I grew up on a SmartFade 24/96, and I love it to death.

It looks very good! After spending some time playing with the Virtual Smartfade emulator/editor, I can see this very closely matches our needs. Moreover, the YouTube instructional videos are like a complete course in how to use it. As one of our goals is to get the Tech Ed teachers interested, showing them a free simulator and ready-to-go set of videos might help us convince them that this is a low-cost, low-labor offering to add to their syllabus.

They're even available used on eBay for sane prices (from just below to just above a grand, depending on size, and how long you want to wait for your pitch).

Indeed! There seem to be quite a few available from numerous used vendors. For myself, I'd go that route. For the middle school, I think new is the better choice, as the kids can be hard on gear, and a warranty will be important.

They want nothing to do with multi-channel DMX fixtures, though. Nothing at all.

That's okay. We have 48 dimmers, each of which drives a single-address incandescent lumière. Nothing we have here moves, changes color, inserts a gobo, alters its width, or otherwise departs from its basic mission of emitting light at varying intensities. Owing to the way public schools are funded, nothing we have here ever will, either. (Yes, I am trying to get a new light board put into this school, but you'd be amazed at all the hoops the school put in front of us to jump through, just to donate this item. I can't imagine what kind of obstacles would bar us from installing something requiring a licensed electrician's services.)

This has been an interesting experience. What I want is a "simple" board, with rather rudimentary features. But, as Bill Conner observed, it appears the "dimmer per circuit era" is, or shortly will be, behind us. My little middle school and its once state-of-the-art auditorium is now a victim of progress, left behind by technology so great and so cheap that hardly anyone has a reason to sell simple boards anymore.

But, the suggestions here about the Scene Setter-48 and the Smartfade 1248 do look squarely aimed at meeting our needs, so I remain optimistic. Still that pesky little problem of being able to explain to the school why the CS20 I so loudly approved was not the right choice after all. Well, I'm a lawyer. Talking my way out of things is something I'm supposed to be able to do, eh? right?

 

[RonHebbard]

It looks very good! After spending some time playing with the Virtual Smartfade emulator/editor, I can see this very closely matches our needs. Moreover, the YouTube instructional videos are like a complete course in how to use it. As one of our goals is to get the Tech Ed teachers interested, showing them a free simulator and ready-to-go set of videos might help us convince them that this is a low-cost, low-labor offering to add to their syllabus.



Indeed! There seem to be quite a few available from numerous used vendors. For myself, I'd go that route. For the middle school, I think new is the better choice, as the kids can be hard on gear, and a warranty will be important.



That's okay. We have 48 dimmers, each of which drives a single-address incandescent lumière. Nothing we have here moves, changes color, inserts a gobo, alters its width, or otherwise departs from its basic mission of emitting light at varying intensities. Owing to the way public schools are funded, nothing we have here ever will, either. (Yes, I am trying to get a new light board put into this school, but you'd be amazed at all the hoops the school put in front of us to jump through, just to donate this item. I can't imagine what kind of obstacles would bar us from installing something requiring a licensed electrician's services.)

This has been an interesting experience. What I want is a "simple" board, with rather rudimentary features. But, as Bill Conner observed, it appears the "dimmer per circuit era" is, or shortly will be, behind us. My little middle school and its once state-of-the-art auditorium is now a victim of progress, left behind by technology so great and so cheap that hardly anyone has a reason to sell simple boards anymore.

But, the suggestions here about the Scene Setter-48 and the Smartfade 1248 do look squarely aimed at meeting our needs, so I remain optimistic. Still that pesky little problem of being able to explain to the school why the CS20 I so loudly approved was not the right choice after all. Well, I'm a lawyer. Talking my way out of things is something I'm supposed to be able to do, eh? right?

Loved that crossed out "eh?"
Season's best and Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard.

 

[BillConnerFASTC]

My little middle school and its once state-of-the-art auditorium is now a victim of progress, left behind by technology so great and so cheap that hardly anyone has a reason to sell simple boards anymore.

I'd guess the auditorium was state of the art for a lot longer than most of the computer systems you deal with.

Now, whether it was perhaps a victim of over-design - albeit by a vendor if I understand you correctly - or not over design or even under-designed - I can never be sure. I remain the optimist that that perhaps it sparked an interest in someone that became a lifelong pursuit, and was therefore worth it. (I had in mind a student, not you, for "someone", but still value.) When I see the horribly under designed and inadequate public school spaces ostensibly for the performing arts that are so unsupportive, I don't ever feel bad about pushing for more in the projects I work on if just to raise the average.

 

[microstar]

I'm pretty sure Teatronics still makes the Tech Director series of 2-scene preset consoles and the Producer3 2-scene/submaster/memory console. All available in 48-channel versions. They have always been well-built in my opinion. The manuals are available in PDF form on their web site.

 

[Stevens R. Miller]

I'd guess the auditorium was state of the art for a lot longer than most of the computer systems you deal with.

That's hard for me to say, since I'm new to theater and theater tech. The school was built in 2003. Here in Loudoun county, we build schools according to a fixed architectural design. With a few options, that means our middle schools all look exactly alike (or are mirror images of each other). That's a shame because it creates the expectation in the minds of parents that, if one school has a given asset, then all schools will have that asset. The school system calls that "parity," but I call it "expensive." For theatrical purposes, more than one school could share a theater. But, to be cost effective, that theater would have to be in a school, not a stand-alone structure. And you are never going to sell Loudoun county parents on the idea that someone else's kid goes to a school with a theater, but their kid doesn't. So, they all have theaters that no one uses. What makes it even worse is that it is typical for a school to open with hundreds of empty seats, then have its population grow to the point where it is overcrowded by hundreds of students. When that happens, where do they hold class for the excess kids? The auditorium! They close the partitions that turn it into three rooms and, when they do this, the teachers always turn on the house incandescents (instead of the ceiling fluorescents), because they like the color temperature better. Alas, those bulbs burn out fast and are hard to get replaced. More importantly, it means the "theater" is usually in use as a classroom, so the idea of adding dramatic arts to the school's curriculum is ruled out.

Interestingly, after I did "Alladin Jr" with the last year, and discovered that the teachers who taught class in the auditorium simply refused to use the fluorescents (and keep the incadescents dark), I subsequently did lights for the "drama camp" held in that school last summer. To turn switch between incandescents and fluorescents, you have to manipulate a wall switch that controls both en masse (the incandescents are actually in nine sets, each with its own dimmer). Well, guess what? The support company that maintains the theater gear for the school system had updated the firmware in the DMX controllers they use, and it was no longer possible to turn on the incandescents from the wall switch. It could only be done from a little touch-panel LCD display in the wings. Of course, no one told me this, so I was sure I had broken something for a few days, until it hit me ("aha!") that this was a really good idea. It stopped the teachers from using up the house incandescents, left them control over the fluorescents, and still let someone who knew how to do it (or, like me, cracked the code) control those incandescents via the DMX console. I'm sure the teachers who teach in there hate it, and some may even blame me for it (as they may have heard me grumbling about this during "Alladin Jr," but, heck, my son doesn't go there anymore and my director loves it, so I'm calling that win.

Interesting that you compared this to my computer background, Bill. When I was in college, my school did not teach computers (I went to a liberal arts college where, apparently, the thinking was that if anyone would pay you to do a thing, then they did not teach that thing at that college). So, we had one, but it was mostly for limited use by math and physics students, largely under their own self-direction. The machine was an IBM-1130, which was obsolete five years before I got there. What this meant was that it was very simple machine that hardly anyone used. Except me. I got the key to the computer room and was allowed to stay up all night with the thing if I wanted to. I learned a ton of stuff that way, and that's partly because the old machine was fairly easy for me to understand. If I'd started out with something more complicated like a VAX-11/780 (which we got during my senior year), I bet would never have learned as much.

Getting this chance to help out in the middle school is a lot like that. Yes, our dimmers-nothing-but-dimmers space is definitely no longer state-of-the-art. And that old Innovator 48/96 with its 3.5-inch diskette and text-only display has more gray hair than I do. But it's a great place for me to be starting out and trying to catch up with current technology. Administrative overhead makes it hard to get some things done, but at least I'm not competing with anyone else for the chance to be involved in productions there. So, much like my days with the IBM-1130, I'm learning as much as I am partly because it's all simpler than a state-of-the-art theater would be today.

I'll take that trade any day.

 

[BillConnerFASTC]

IBM 360 in my school days - and all punchcard. Boy, was that JCL a PITA.

Your school practices don't seem that different than what I encounter, expect they don't as often reuse the plans - but then it seems that the buildings are much further apart in ages - like a new hs and the last new one was 30-40+ years previous. Parity remains paramount. East can't have more or less than West.

And than heavens the incandescent vs fluorescent house lights issue is fading (eh?) fast. LED does it all pretty neatly.

 

[Stevens R. Miller]

IBM 360 in my school days - and all punchcard. Boy, was that JCL a PITA.

Heh. When I even tried to refer to the cards that had 1130 monitor commands punched into them as "JCL," the woman who ran the computer center openly scoffed at me.

Your school practices don't seem that different than what I encounter, expect they don't as often reuse the plans - but then it seems that the buildings are much further apart in ages - like a new hs and the last new one was 30-40+ years previous.

Gracious, you live in a tranquil place, don't you? Loudoun has had the "honor" being named "the fastest growing county in America" more than once. Every year, we remain one of the ten fastest growing. We have about 60 elementary schools and over 30 middle and high schools, the majority of which were built after we moved here, sixteen years ago. That happens when your population curve looks like this:

"Parity" where technology is concerned is hard to maintain. Every time a new school is built, some new technology goes into it that was not available when the immediately previous school was built. Parents have been known to say that this reflects some kind of favoritism. As a member of the county board of supervisors from 2008 until 2012 (when that graph shows we grew by about 30%, almost all of which was in my district), I got to hear a lot of parents complain that the "rich" kids were getting all the good stuff in their schools, while the "poor" neighborhoods were left behind. "Rich" and "poor" are slippery concepts when you are also talking about the second-richest county in America. But, that's why every last school has to have its own lighting console. The more cost-effective alterntaive would be to have a few of them, and take them from school to school when they needed them for a production. Alas, that would only mean parents would end up thinking their child's school never got to use it, while someone else's child's school got it all the time.

Did I ever mention why I got out of politics? Do I need to?

Very eager to be borrowing a Scene Setter-48 tomorrow. I'll post here on how that works out.

 

[Chris Pflieger]

Did I read this thread right?

Stevens gets a CS20 the realizes it really is limited to 40 devices; not good enough for his 48 dimmer rack.
He then says that in reality, there's only 40 devices in the space.
Then game of "what about console X" begins.


Why can't you just run the CS20 with it only controlling the devices you actually have? It's a pretty good "future proof" console for when they get some better fixtures.

 

[Stevens R. Miller]

Did I read this thread right?

Stevens gets a CS20 then realizes it really is limited to 40 devices; not good enough for his 48 dimmer rack.
He then says that in reality, there's only 40 devices in the space.
Then game of "what about console X" begins.

Yup, that's it in a nutshell.

Why can't you just run the CS20 with it only controlling the devices you actually have? It's a pretty good "future proof" console for when they get some better fixtures.

Two reasons (mostly):

1) With 48 actual dimmers, I can't be sure the school won't ever have more than 40 lights. It doesn't now, but it was wired for 48 in the past, so it might have 48 in the future. (Buying new gear is almost unheard of, but replacement gear has been known to appear.)

2) It's too complicated. We can't be sure a teacher will take "ownership" of it as a classroom exercise, there isn't always an adult volunteer who can master it, and the kids cannot be relied upon to figure it out themselves. (Maybe ETC knows something I don't about how much time people spend reading owner's manuals, but the CS20 doesn't even have one. It has some on-board videos and a fair-to-middlin' "help" system, but those aren't nearly the tutorial even a smart middle-schooler would need.)

Now, JimOC_1's idea, of loading 24 scenes into the sub-masters on a Scene Setter-48, works pretty well. I just demonstrated that approach to the drama coach, and she liked it quite a bit. Because the Scene Setter-48 will actually let you load 96 scenes by paging the sub-masters, the coach and I agreed that, if nothing else, we could come up with 24 generic scenes that would be sufficient to put on any show they might do. So, in a pinch, if a kid just couldn't be found who could handle programming the sub-masters, the coach could just select Page 4 (where our generic scenes would be kept), and call for her cues based on those.

Meanwhile, with ETC's help, I have figured that the Smartfade 1248 can do all the things the Scene Setter-48 can do, and it can do a genuine dipless cross-fade and memorize a cue stack. ETC has also created some truly excellent videos that I believe a kid could use on their own. Further, ETC provides a freely downloadable editor that perfectly emulates the Smartfade 1248. I used that while watching the videos to learn how it works. Any number of kids could do that, for free, at home, and make themselves competent to do a show. If, in spite of how well it fits, no kid can be found to use the Smartfade's cue stack, it can still be used as a pre-programmed set of sub-masters, same as I described above for the Scene Setter-48.

As for getting better fixtures, well... let's just say that public middle schools don't tend to trade up their auditorium tech very often, and leave it at that (before smoke starts coming out of my nostrils ).

 

[JimOC_1]

I see you reported on another thread:

"set up and demonstrate a far cheaper, far superior lighting system for a local middle school. The PTA was impressed and donated the money to buy the new console. End result? The school system electricians took one look at it and said, "You're not allowed to use anything we didn't approve." The PTA literally had to take their donation back."

Sad to hear your efforts did not work out for the kids, teachers, and parents.
Was the reasoning use by the school system electricians useful for the PTA? That is if the PTA wanted to continue the project to help the school shows?

 

[Jay Ashworth]

I dunno if they can buy used, but there have been a number of sub-1K SFs on eBay the last week or two...

 

[RonHebbard]

Yup, that's it in a nutshell.



Two reasons (mostly):

1) With 48 actual dimmers, I can't be sure the school won't ever have more than 40 lights. It doesn't now, but it was wired for 48 in the past, so it might have 48 in the future. (Buying new gear is almost unheard of, but replacement gear has been known to appear.)

2) It's too complicated. We can't be sure a teacher will take "ownership" of it as a classroom exercise, there isn't always an adult volunteer who can master it, and the kids cannot be relied upon to figure it out themselves. (Maybe ETC knows something I don't about how much time people spend reading owner's manuals, but the CS20 doesn't even have one. It has some on-board videos and a fair-to-middlin' "help" system, but those aren't nearly the tutorial even a smart middle-schooler would need.)

Now, JimOC_1's idea, of loading 24 scenes into the sub-masters on a Scene Setter-48, works pretty well. I just demonstrated that approach to the drama coach, and she liked it quite a bit. Because the Scene Setter-48 will actually let you load 96 scenes by paging the sub-masters, the coach and I agreed that, if nothing else, we could come up with 24 generic scenes that would be sufficient to put on any show they might do. So, in a pinch, if a kid just couldn't be found who could handle programming the sub-masters, the coach could just select Page 4 (where our generic scenes would be kept), and call for her cues based on those.

Meanwhile, with ETC's help, I have figured that the Smartfade 1248 can do all the things the Scene Setter-48 can do, and it can do a genuine dipless cross-fade and memorize a cue stack. ETC has also created some truly excellent videos that I believe a kid could use on their own. Further, ETC provides a freely downloadable editor that perfectly emulates the Smartfade 1248. I used that while watching the videos to learn how it works. Any number of kids could do that, for free, at home, and make themselves competent to do a show. If, in spite of how well it fits, no kid can be found to use the Smartfade's cue stack, it can still be used as a pre-programmed set of sub-masters, same as I described above for the Scene Setter-48.

As for getting better fixtures, well... let's just say that public middle schools don't tend to trade up their auditorium tech very often, and leave it at that (before smoke starts coming out of my nostrils ).

@Stevens R. Miller What's to know of this situation now in August of 2017?
Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard.

 

[EdSavoie]

I too would love to hear an update.

We too have been taking a good look at the Colorsource 40, (Being a highschool auditorium looking to keep our current capabilities, we did need the extra channels) however given the ETC Pricetag, plus the absolutely insane local pricing in Ottawa for it, and that we MUST buy all of our gear through one of two approved vendors means it's a hard buy.

If you're wondering about the second vendor, we've all but blacklisted them with regard to our Lighting work because they tried peddling us a rather marked up Martin M-Touch system and imported AliExpress LED fixtures. As I think their expertise in Audio gear is excellent, I won't be publicly slathering their name over the forum.

Where does that leave us for consoles? Well, the current contender we've been looking up is the Strand 250ml, which we are now waiting on a quote to get back to us.


Ed's Note: Sorry if I'm a little incoherent at the moment, I can't presently tell if what I've written makes sense to anyone, my precious sleep still seems a bit lacking.

 

[RonHebbard]

I too would love to hear an update.

We too have been taking a good look at the Colorsource 40, (Being a highschool auditorium looking to keep our current capabilities, we did need the extra channels) however given the ETC Pricetag, plus the absolutely insane local pricing in Ottawa for it, and that we MUST buy all of our gear through one of two approved vendors means it's a hard buy.

If you're wondering about the second vendor, we've all but blacklisted them with regard to our Lighting work because they tried peddling us a rather marked up Martin M-Touch system and imported AliExpress LED fixtures. As I think their expertise in Audio gear is excellent, I won't be publicly slathering their name over the forum.

Where does that leave us for consoles? Well, the current contender we've been looking up is the Strand 250ml, which we are now waiting on a quote to get back to us.


Ed's Note: Sorry if I'm a little incoherent at the moment, I can't presently tell if what I've written makes sense to anyone, my precious sleep still seems a bit lacking.

@EdSavoie When you wrote "Ed's Note:" was that a note to Editors or a note to or from Ed Savoie? Perhaps you wouldn't be quite so tired if you were writing in the first rather than third person?
Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard.

 

[Stevens R. Miller]

A bumptious school employee declared that our working system wasn't "allowed" for some imaginary reason, so the drama coach sent it back. I don't know what they're using now, as I got fed up with the whole thing and told them I wished them the best, but they were on their own. My son is a sophomore in high school now, so I don't even have a student there anymore. Would have been glad to help further, but I'm not going to fight with obstreperous bureaucrats to do it. Been working with a lot of community theater companies lately that are typically very glad to get a competent techie's help. Lots and lots of kids get into those shows, so it's turned out to be a successful way to help my area's young people.