Can my ColorSource 20 control more than 40 dimmers?

In your description and as regards theatre lighting gear, you're doing just what I do, facing same obstacles, but you don't get paid. By getting paid, people feel more obligated to listen and follow my recommendations. I'm sure it would be similar if I was offering free legal aid. So, clearly the solution is to send them a bill for your consulting services.
 
In your description and as regards theatre lighting gear, you're doing just what I do, facing same obstacles, but you don't get paid. By getting paid, people feel more obligated to listen and follow my recommendations. I'm sure it would be similar if I was offering free legal aid. So, clearly the solution is to send them a bill for your consulting services.

I believe you've got it figured out, Bill. Of course, in my paid work, I have found that it is usually the clients with the lowest budgets that expect the most for what they pay. Being a volunteer at least means they don't expect much of me. And if they did pay me even a token sum, given my bumbling level of skill in this area, I'd probably have to give them some advice derived from what I told a client a few years ago. Fellow came to me with what he said was a "small legal problem." At our first meeting, he described a complex fact pattern that called for someone with extensive, specialized experience I didn't have. After listening to this for a while, I finally told him, "Speaking as your attorney, my advice to you is that you should get a better lawyer."

The school system here actually does have a support and maintenance contract with a local theatrical tech company, but they are the ones who appear to have talked the school into buying tens of thousands of dollars' worth of gear they didn't need and don't use. If I can get the kids in a position to run simple light cues with a few hours of my time and a four-hundred-dollar device, I'm willing to do it. The contractor, on the other hand, would probably see little upside to recommending a cheap console to a school system that has probably paid them over a million dollars in the last twenty years. And the last thing I want to see happen here is for the too-complicated-for-anyone-to-use-it Innovator to be replaced by an also-too-complicated-for-anyone-to-use-it contraption that costs a lot, when a low-cost, limited-function gizmo will actually work and actually be used.

Oh, by the way: Merry Christmas to all who celebrate it! Happy second day of Hannukah, as well.
 
@derekleffew I'm welcoming your color picker rant as an educationally interesting discussion point please. ... Please forgive me if I haven't explained that adequately and 'take it away' @derekleffew please.
Nah; it's Christmas. In honor of the season, I shall spare the world of my tirade, at least until 2017.

Best to you and yours, and them and theirs, and his and hers, and...
 
I believe you've got it figured out, Bill. Of course, in my paid work, I have found that it is usually the clients with the lowest budgets that expect the most for what they pay. Being a volunteer at least means they don't expect much of me. And if they did pay me even a token sum, given my bumbling level of skill in this area, I'd probably have to give them some advice derived from what I told a client a few years ago. Fellow came to me with what he said was a "small legal problem." At our first meeting, he described a complex fact pattern that called for someone with extensive, specialized experience I didn't have. After listening to this for a while, I finally told him, "Speaking as your attorney, my advice to you is that you should get a better lawyer."

The school system here actually does have a support and maintenance contract with a local theatrical tech company, but they are the ones who appear to have talked the school into buying tens of thousands of dollars' worth of gear they didn't need and don't use. If I can get the kids in a position to run simple light cues with a few hours of my time and a four-hundred-dollar device, I'm willing to do it. The contractor, on the other hand, would probably see little upside to recommending a cheap console to a school system that has probably paid them over a million dollars in the last twenty years. And the last thing I want to see happen here is for the too-complicated-for-anyone-to-use-it Innovator to be replaced by an also-too-complicated-for-anyone-to-use-it contraption that costs a lot, when a low-cost, limited-function gizmo will actually work and actually be used.

Oh, by the way: Merry Christmas to all who celebrate it! Happy second day of Hannukah, as well.


I sometimes have specified equipment beyond what a school client could realistically need or use, because of parity or what they had (and didn't use), or just by the school's insistence. It isn't always the consultant or dealer that is responsible for over equipping.
 
Stevens, I truly admire that you are willing (and able - to the best of your knowledge) to work this out. What is disappointing to me is that you have to. When my kids were in high school, the school put on 3 shows a year, there was a class in acting they could take, the youngest did participate in orchestra and in jazz band - instruments provided by the school. There is a 'Performing Arts' department, with administrator, technical director, and secretary. I, myself, was paid several hundred dollars a show for several years to help build the sets for the plays and musicals. Has education changed that much since my guys graduated?
 
When my kids were in high school, the school put on 3 shows a year, there was a class in acting they could take, the youngest did participate in orchestra and in jazz band - instruments provided by the school. There is a 'Performing Arts' department, with administrator, technical director, and secretary. I, myself, was paid several hundred dollars a show for several years to help build the sets for the plays and musicals. Has education changed that much since my guys graduated?

The local high schools match what you describe pretty well, d. The school I'm working with is a middle school. The equipment they have is more than good enough to put on decent shows. The local community theater companies usually rent the middle school auditoriums instead of the high school auditoriums, because they are about half the price, yet still have excellent technical infrastructures. The problem is only felt by the middle schools themselves, since, while there are Music and Tech Ed departments, there is no Drama department. No one takes ownership of the tech in the middle school auditoriums and, since it is simply too complex for the students to figure out on their own, it goes to waste.

A solution would be to work an arrangement with the high school that each middle school "feeds" such that a junior or senior studying drama could get some credit for being an assistant to the director, responsible for supervising the middle school techies. That's essentially what I do when I help on a show. Usually, there are two kids on the sound board, and two on lights. Another adult volunteer helps the sound techies (there are loads of local adults who can handle a mixer), and I help the lighting techies. But, apparently, I'm unique. In a county full of defense-contractor employees, many of whom are computer programmers (like me), I'm the only nerd they can find who has read the owner's manual on the Innovator, studied up on DMX512 and basic lighting tech, and come in to teach the kids. There's no reason I can think of why this shouldn't be the role of a high school drama student (or, hey!, maybe they can do something with the drama department at the local community college... hmmm...).

Anyway, that's why I like JimOC_1's idea so much: having them play the cues from a 24-entry library of scenes assigned to pre-programmed submasters isn't how any professional would do it, I am sure. But, a couple of smart middle schoolers working from a short cheat-sheet I prepare, could handle that.

At least, I hope so...
 
The high school tech director was also responsible for setup and running (with student help) of any performances at the middle and elementary schools [just one each in our district]. I did not envy his workday.
I agree that you could probably get away with 24 'looks' and reuse them like cues, so perhaps that's the solution.
 
I agree the Scene Setter 48 could be a good choice - a lot like the Strand Mantrix of 1982 - but the Elation web site says discontinued. A problem of the LED world is the orphaned dimmer per circuit era. I know it seems nearly impossible to imagine dimmers and quartz completely disappearing, but I think it's probably just a generation away.
 
I agree the Scene Setter 48 could be a good choice - a lot like the Strand Mantrix of 1982 - but the Elation web site says discontinued. A problem of the LED world is the orphaned dimmer per circuit era. I know it seems nearly impossible to imagine dimmers and quartz completely disappearing, but I think it's probably just a generation away.

That's puzzling about Elation saying it's discontinued. It's still listed on ADJ's Web site, and several vendors say they have it in stock. There are a lot of them on the used market and, even though I would prefere to avoid used gear for this installation, they are low enough in cost that I'd consider it.
 
I agree. Just pointing out you may not want to wait and may want to reserve one before presenting to PTA. I can tell you tough on theatre consultant's credibility when recommended products are not sufficient or not available.
 
I agree. Just pointing out you may not want to wait and may want to reserve one before presenting to PTA. I can tell you tough on theatre consultant's credibility when recommended products are not sufficient or not available.

Man, that would be a downer! I see a half-dozen vendors who say they have them still in stock, plus several more on eBay. I'll see if any of them will hold one for me but, if they all get away, can you recommend something similar in the under-US$1,000 range?
 
A bit off topic here.....but as to the suggestion to work an arrangement with HS students to assist--this may not be in the school's best interest on a LONG term basis. Let me qualify this: Yes, you will be assured of staff to run the shows, but periodic maintenance and address of repairs/other tech issues will not happen.

I offer this from the perspective of being TD in a middle shool in one district, and serve as an on call tech consultant for a MS in another district (does not have a dedicated tech staff person). When I started as TD in first school, the task had been previously carried out by well meaning HS students. I spent the better part of 2 months correcting wiring issues that violated every aspect of NFPA and NEC codes. This was a district that had "smart, motivated" students. They just didn't have the time or interest to do anything more than run a show. As for the other district, things break or stop working on a regular basis; there is no PM. They call me, I fix it, done--until the next thing breaks. But, they are assured that ONE person handles issues, in a timely, cost effective manner; without the run around or the blame game (vendor A says it was vendor B's fault....).

FWIW-I train the MS Tech Crew one afternoon per week in January and February for their annual March show. They learn how to program and run a conventional/intelligent light board, the Fat Frog by Zero88; and a legacy Mackie 40 channel mixer for sound. By the time the show comes, they are running everything. I am there to coach them if some the goes really bad, but they do 90% of it.
 
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A bit off topic here.....but as to the suggestion to work an arrangement with HS students to assist--this may not be in the school's best interest on a LONG term basis. ... I spent the better part of 2 months correcting wiring issues that violated every aspect of NFPA and NEC codes.

Yeah, I wouldn't want unqualified people, kids or otherwise, messing with the wiring. Fortunately, the school system here has a maintenance contract with a professional contractor for that. The only thing I'd want a HS student to do is train the MS techies to run the board. But, I've learned from being a parent of a student in this sytem for the last nine years that the principals and teachers, nearly all of whom are very fine folks, feel they need no one's help in designing their curricula or their extra-curricular functions. The chances that the Drama Club and/or other interested parties could get the principals of both the HS and MS to approve this are practically nil. So it's just a dream I have, and a dream it is going to remain.
 
Interesting update: A support tech from ETC found this thread and confirmed for me via e-mail that, alas, the CS20 really does top out at 40 dimmers. It can use more than 40 addresses when controlling devices more sophisticated than dimmers, but when you are patched one-for-one, 40 is the hard limit. I'll reiterate that I think the CS20 is a pretty keen console, but it just isn't right for the job I'm doing.

Rather nice to know that a major vendor of theater-tech gear reads ControlBooth, eh?
 
Yup.

It has 40 *channels*. Even if you're addressing single-address devices, though, those can be numbered anywhere in the universe; you simply can't *address* more than 40 of them at the same time.

How it is for hot-repatching, I don't remember.
 
Interesting update: A support tech from ETC found this thread and confirmed for me via e-mail that, alas, the CS20 really does top out at 40 dimmers. It can use more than 40 addresses when controlling devices more sophisticated than dimmers, but when you are patched one-for-one, 40 is the hard limit. I'll reiterate that I think the CS20 is a pretty keen console, but it just isn't right for the job I'm doing.

Rather nice to know that a major vendor of theater-tech gear reads ControlBooth, eh?


Yes, and several. I posted a picture of a label with misspelling and a new one with correct spelling was sent to the job site. It hard to not appreciate and favor this kind of service.
 
Interesting update: A support tech from ETC found this thread and confirmed for me via e-mail that, alas, the CS20 really does top out at 40 dimmers. It can use more than 40 addresses when controlling devices more sophisticated than dimmers, but when you are patched one-for-one, 40 is the hard limit. I'll reiterate that I think the CS20 is a pretty keen console, but it just isn't right for the job I'm doing.

Rather nice to know that a major vendor of theater-tech gear reads ControlBooth, eh?
If you keep appending those eh?'s on the end, you're going to fool me into believing you're one of my countrymen.
Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard.
 
My situation is atypical. The players are all of the following:

The Drama Coach: She's a local preschool teacher with directing experience who, for a very small stipend, virtually volunteers to direct/produce two musicals every year at (what used to be) my son's middle school. She is a fabulously talented woman who knows very little about theater lighting tech, and is counting on me to deliver that knowledge.

The PTA: They are the treasury in this story and have the power to allocate money as they deem fit. The dramatic productions are actually revenue generators, so they are smart enough to know that investing some of that profit back into the theater makes good business sense. But they also include a lot of parents who see sports equipment and other things as high-priority items. Talking them into backing a four-figure purchase was a major stroke of diplomacy by The Drama Coach.

The Parents of the Drama Club Members: They are the ones who lobbied for the PTA to use proceeds from the last couple of shows to buy some new gear for the auditorium/theater, including a cyc, some footlights, and the replacement lighthing console. They know varying degrees about theater, but none of them knows anything about lighthing tech. They are counting on me to deliver that knowledge.

The Middle School Administration: They are actually pretty friendly to drama, but are nervous about allowing non-staff to be making choices about complicated equipment that will go into their existing lighting system. By showing them we could make fuller use of their existing equipment than anyone ever has before, we have earned a degree of their trust. But they are wary and making any mistakes that cause them to doubt us could be fatal to that trust.

FullCompass: A saintly vendor that has offered us an extended try-and-buy deal on the CS20, since no one here (including me) really knew if it would work for us (and, thank Ghu that they did, as it appears it just won't).

Me: I'm a volunteer with a lot of technical skills, but only early amateur level knowledge of theatrical lighthing. Pretty much everyone above is putting their faith in me to make sure they spend as little as possible in order to get a device that will actually work and that sixth, seventh, and eighth graders can use.

So, if I were to go back to them and say, "Well, the CS20 won't cut it, but I'm really, kinda, pretty, almost certain that, for another nine-hundred bucks, the CS40 will get the job done," they might say, "Oh, well, if that's what you think we need to do, we'll do it." But, it is at least as likely that they will say, "What? You told use this eighteen-hundred-dollar machine was what we needed. Now you want more money? How do we know this will work any better?"

In a sense, I really don't have a client. I have an opportunity to convince a large group of people to make a particular choice that will, for a long time, allow their children to produce plays that include decent, basic lighting cues, with those children running the lights themselves. Throwing the decision back to them will only have them questioning how useful my advice really is, and leave them that much more baffled about what to do.

As a lawyer, I face this problem all the time. You want your client to know enough to make wise choices, but you also have a duty to give advice when you think you know which choice is best. If you are competent, your advice is pretty good. Here, though, I have nowhere near the same level of expertise in theater lighting that I have in the practice of law. That's why I'm a volunteer on this, dig? ;) I'm learning it as I go along (with a lot of great help from folks in this forum), hoping I don't screw the pooch before getting all these good and trusting folks to buy a device that will work for them.

At this point, JimOC_1's suggestion about using the low-cost Scene Setter-48 in a kind mixed programmed/manual mode looks very promising, and he's arranged for me to borrow one so I can test it directly. If it works out, I'll demonstrate it for The Drama Coach and, at that point, she will make the actual decision.

I do like the CS20, by the way. It's a pretty nifty little console with a lot features for the price. But, it won't run 48 dimmers, has a lot of features we'll never use, and is simply too complicated for a middle-schooler to operate.

More soon...
I'm a teacher and completely understand EVERYTHING you are saying. I purchased a used Smartfade ML for doing shows- wife is a middle school drama teacher, plus I assist with technicals for 2 high schools as well as some local community theater groups. Its a board that I can train someone on the basics (including saving scene presets) and can trust a student to not mess up. If the plan is to get a functional board for your 48 dimmer room, I would highly suggest a smartfade. Also, check out the computer software. Kids can actually program in the tech room hooked into their computer via USB. It would seriously work well. If the plan is to eventually go with led lighting (even cheap crappy ones from amazon) I would suggest the ML. It has limitations and not perfect by any means, but it is great for a middle school student to run. I actually just had a Christmas sing along that we did last Friday, and a 1st grader ran the lights for me while I ran sound and video. It is easy!
 
I would have to respectfully disagree with the premise that a used express would be beyond the scope of what you are trying to accomplish.
If you are ready to program scenes on subs anyway on another device, you can do that on an express. You can create cheat sheets for more ambitious folk to stretch a little and still be able to restore a backed up show file if it goes awry.
The manual is excellent and I'm reasonably sure that they will be able to find a student who would be thrilled to learn it at least every few classes. It give you more flexibility and in a few years, when your counterpart's offspring enters the school, they will sing your praises for having them foresight to leave them with something they can expand upon.
I would also recommend that having a more flexible console inhouse enhances the revenue that can ask for renting the space to others.
 
I would have to respectfully disagree with the premise that a used express would be beyond the scope of what you are trying to accomplish.
If you are ready to program scenes on subs anyway on another device, you can do that on an express. You can create cheat sheets for more ambitious folk to stretch a little and still be able to restore a backed up show file if it goes awry.
The manual is excellent and I'm reasonably sure that they will be able to find a student who would be thrilled to learn it at least every few classes. It give you more flexibility and in a few years, when your counterpart's offspring enters the school, they will sing your praises for having them foresight to leave them with something they can expand upon.
I would also recommend that having a more flexible console inhouse enhances the revenue that can ask for renting the space to others.
It is 20+ year old technology and relies on a floppy disk for storage. If you had one or were given one at no cost, perhaps worth considering, but time to move on.
 

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