Can my ColorSource 20 control more than 40 dimmers?

[Stevens R. Miller]

I may have stepped in it this time. I advised my son's (former) middle school to replace its disintegrating Innovator with an ETC ColorSource 20. Their system has 48 DMX512 dimmers. The CS20 only provides 40 channels, each of which can be assigned to a dimmer, or to a device that uses more than one DMX channel. It also has a numeric keypad for what it calls "classic" control.

My mistake seems to have been assuming that the keypad would let me set the level for DMX addresses outside the range patched to the 40 channels. But it doesn't. If I key in, "1 thru 3 at 50 enter," this has the effect of setting channels 1, 2, and 3 to 50%. It does not set DMX addresses 1, 2, and 3 to 50% (unless, of course, those channels are patched to those addresses).

Does anyone know how I can use the CS20 to set 48 DMX addresses individually, or do I have to hang my head in shame, eat crow, and tell the school they need to pony up another $900 for a ColorSource 40?

 

[BillConnerFASTC]

Stevens I'm think it's a maximum or 40 devices - whether 1 address dimmers or many address/attribute automated lights.

 

[Stevens R. Miller]

Stevens I'm think it's a maximum or 40 devices - whether 1 address dimmers or many address/attribute automated lights.

I think you're right about that, Bill. I've been fussing with it for a couple of days now and it just doesn't seem to want to act like there are either more than 40 devices, or any way to set levels by DMX address.

Only trick I've been able to play is to lie to it and say that our three sets of gels are each one device. That is, I tell it that DMX addresses 29, 30, and 31 which are individual banks of red, green, and blue gels, are one RGB device (one I guessed at from the long list of devices in the CS20's firmware). Then, I can tell it which color I want that "single" device to be, and that sets the values for all three DMX addresses. One can store different colors in different cues, so it's easy to fade from one color to another, between cues. Since we have three sets of gels on nine dimmers, this trick lets me use three channels to control nine addresses, reducing the total number of channels I need from 48 to 42. Our house electric has 18 instruments on it, run by nine dimmers, all pretty much aimed at the center of the stage. It would hardly be noticed if I ganged up a couple of adjacent instruments so that one channel simply had two dimmers mirror each other. If I did this twice, my nine dimmers on that bar would only need seven channels to control them.

Now, fact is that, although I can see 48 dimmers in the rack, They don't actually have 48 instruments in the house. Several of the dimmers are, as far as I can tell, not connected to anything. The stage electric raceway has a number at each location, and I know what the numbers are for the house lights and the instruments on the house bar. Add them all up and you only get 40 dimmers that are actually being used for anything. (There are a couple of outlets in the walls of the sides of the stage, but they have never, ever been used, and I'd be nervous about plugging anything into them with twelve-year-olds running around them.)

So, I'm wondering if I can use a combination of the tricks I've described above, and reliance on the fact that they don't really use 48 addresses, to justify keeping the CS20. In a pinch, if someone really hated the patches I set up for this, they could always patch it a different way, just so long as they never needed more than 40 channels, one way or the other.

The CS20 is here for evaluation. If we don't feel it works, we can send it back (thanks to Full Compass for being very cool about that for a school with nothing but my amateur guidance to rely on). But, this is being paid for with PTA money, so the budget is very tight. Do you think my approach above is viable, or is it sufficiently rinky-dink that I ought to swallow my pride, admit that the CS20 was not the right choice, and tell the PTA they need to do a fund-drive for another $900 and get the CS40?

 

[derekleffew]

1. Some of the dimmers may not be used in every production,
2. and/or, It's likely that two or more dimmers could be patched to the same control channel. Sacrifice a little flexibility for ease of/faster programming. One channel brings up a wash of six lamps (three or more dimmers), for example.
3.

... The CS20 only provides 40 channels, each of which can be assigned to a dimmer, or to a device that uses more than one DMX channel. ...

You have this slightly backwards, and it may make a difference in your thinking. Dimmers are patched into a control channel, not the other way around. A channel can control multiple dimmers, but a dimmer cannot be in (assigned to) multiple channels.
4. Deviating from a one-to-one patch adds another layer of complexity, but most would agree the extra trouble is worth it in the long run. See the thread https://www.controlbooth.com/threads/1-1-patch-do-you-use-it.10703/ .
5. All of this is not to say you didn't screw up and might need the larger console after all. Are there any moving lights or LEDs involved?

[Posted simultaneously with the above.]
Your "trick" of "lying" to the console by telling it your red, green, blue -gelled conventionals are one additive mixing device, even though it's at least three dimmers, is one of the most common asked about, so that users can access the console's color picker and have the console mix the desired color. I have mixed emotions about this--the first is always that users should learn to mix RGB on their own without help from the machine, but that's a whole different rant.

 

[BillConnerFASTC]

Stevens - I really think you ought to upgrade to the 40. It seems this will be expected to last a long time, and no ability to rent a couple of movers or add a few LEDs ever, seems very unfortunate.

 

[Stevens R. Miller]

3. You have this slightly backwards, and it may make a difference in your thinking. Dimmers are patched into a control channel, not the other way around. A channel can control multiple dimmers, but a dimmer cannot be in (assigned to) multiple channels.

No, I had that. Sorry if I expressed myself badly, but I know channels-to-dimmers is a one-to-many relationship, not the other way 'round. That's what I had in mind when I said I could gang up more than one instrument onto one channel.

5. All of this is not to say you didn't screw up and might need the larger console after all.

Let us say, may have blundered, eh?

Are there any moving lights or LEDs involved?

None, and see my reply to Bill, below, for more on that.

Your "trick" of "lying" to the console by telling it your red, green, blue -gelled conventionals are one additive mixing device, even though it's at least three dimmers, is one of the most common asked about, so that users can access the console's color picker and have the console mix the desired color. I have mixed emotions about this--the first is always that users should learn to mix RGB on their own without help from the machine, but that's a whole different rant.

It's important to remember that this is being installed in a middle school (grades 6, 7, and 8), with no drama teachers. Ease-of-use must be the top priority because, quite simply, if a feature of this device is not easy to use, it will never be used. This device will replace an Innovator 48 which, as far as I can tell, was never used beyond its ability to control dimmers manually. Whoever installed it appeared to have defined a few submasters, but I believe I am the only person in thirteen years who ever programmed a cue into it. Now, for the first time in the school's history, a Technology Education teacher has said he will consider adding the device to his curriculum. That's the only hope we have of anyone on staff actually taking responsibility for it, and for teaching students how to use it. These students will all be thirteen and fourteen years old, and a Tech Ed "module" of lessons devoted to one technological concept is only a few weeks long. So, we have to give them the simplest possible gadget that we can, within their limited budget.

 

[Stevens R. Miller]

Stevens - I really think you ought to upgrade to the 40. It seems this will be expected to last a long time, and no ability to rent a couple of movers or add a few LEDs ever, seems very unfortunate.

I hear you, Bill, and my own natural desire to keep every possible option open strongly pushes me in the same direction. But there are a couple of points to consider, here.

The system I am adding this console to was installed thirteen years ago, when the school was built. As it has turned out, the decision to include a DMX 512 dimmer rack, with 48 dimmers, two electrics, a programmable console, dozens of instruments, and even divide the house ceiling incandescents into nine sections each on its own dimmer, was a massive waste of taxpayer money. I say so because, as far as I can tell, in all of those thirteen years, I am the only person ever to have programmed a cue into the console. For the first show I did with them, I also programmed a chase into the ceiling lights, that had the sections fade up and down in sets, for a mildly psychedelic effect we used during a big dance number. Everyone loved it, but no one even asked me how to do it. Which means, I suspect, that no one will ever do it again.

Of the 48 dimmers they have, I can only find 36 that are in actual use. The rest either don't have anything connected to them (I found a few floor-level wall jacks that I would hope no one would ever use, considering that the kids could get at them), are attached to instruments that burned out years ago (getting them replaced requires, I am told, an act of Almighty God, which is not in the current budget), or are literally just taking up space in the rack (that is, there isn't even a jack one could use to plug in an instrument). The single stage electric is on a winch and, getting it lowered so we can orient the instruments requires a "work order" that typically is not honored for 60 days. Orienting the house electric instruments requires a motorized platform, kind of like an indoor cherry-picker. All in all, it looks to me like thousands and thousands of dollars were spent on some truly fine equipment, almost all of which has gone largely unused, and much of which as been allowed to crumble over the years for lack of maintenance and/or familiarity.

Now, forgive my bit of rant, please, but I ranted because, as much as I agree that the options to add modern instruments and expand the inventory would be nice, that hasn't happened once in over a decade, and there is no reason to think it will happen anytime in the next 20 years (at the end of which, owing to the population and growth predictions for this county, that school will probably be torn down for lack of need, notwithstanding that it is overcrowded today). Because no one ever learned how to use the Innovator 48, the kids who have done the lights for the last thirteen years have always done them by simply memorizing the fader positions and, when a scene changed, slamming them as fast as they could into the next "cue" setting (usually, the kids worked in pairs, to make this happen faster). It's that kind of wear-and-tear that have finally become too much for the Innovator, as now some of its faders glitch to full on or off in the middle of their travel.

So here I am, trying to find something within their limited budget that can give them full use of what they still have, but that will be easy enough to use that it won't be a waste. Fact is, I may be in a problem I really can't solve. I think the CS20 is pretty easy to use, but it's not something one can just turn on and operate immediately. No middle school student is going to figure this thing out on their own. It's going to take a teacher who puts some time into it. (Amazingly, there is no owner's manual for the CS20 nor CS40; ETC seems to think that some woefully inadequate built-in videos, and a cryptic "help" system are enough to teach you to use it. Maybe they know something I don't about how many people ever really read owner's manuals, but I am still someone who does read them, and the lack of one is kind of shocking to me.)

Well... I think you are right. I think I will tell them to find the extra $900 and get the CS40. Alas, I also think I know what will happen if they do. They will (get me to) patch the existing 36 instruments into the first 36 channels on those 40 faders, the kids will slam them into position as fast as they can from memory during scene changes, and no one will ever program a cue into the thing.

Such is life, I suppose.

 

[BillConnerFASTC]

For reasons of being simpler, the 40 avoids the paging. You need a 48 channel 2 scene preset, but a Mantrix would have been ideal as well. I'll be honest that I don't know if anyone makes a board with 2 rows of 48 sliders.

I wonder if the pda app - no hardware to wear out - would be better in this situation, but tracking liscenses would be crazy.

 

[Stevens R. Miller]

Well, I did suggest the DMXControl software. It's free, not terribly complicated, and has the dual advantages of being something the kids (and teachers) can run on their home computers, while not requiring any special computer at the school. All they'd need is any of several low-priced USB-to-DMX interfaces. I used my laptop, DMXControl 2, and the Enttec Open DMX USB to do a show in an identical middle school auditorium (because their Innovator 48 was truly destroyed). It worked flawlessly, although even in "English" mode, the program requires you to learn a few words of German ("heligkeit," for example). The unofficial drama coach (a saintly woman who volunteers to run their productions, and knows how to get the very best out of her kids, but who really wasn't born to cope with anything technical) let me demonstrate that for her. She seemed a bit put off by the idea of using a computer program to dim a light and, I think, was understandably concerned that, if no one really takes responsibility for learning how to use it, she has no safety net like the simple faders provide her.

Gosh, I really do continue to find it frustrating that there doesn't appear to be any rock-bottom, entry-level console that a smart kid could use. Something like the ADJ Scene Setter 48 seems like it gets close, but it looks like it's for running chases, not playing back cues for a dramatic production.

I know I've asked this before, but can you think of any other device at or below the CS20's US$1,700 price point that will allow a kid to set 48 dimmers, record settings as cues, and then edit and play them back? We don't need chases, color control, gobos, motion, or anything else. Just 48 dimmers and an editable cue memory. I've Googled for this until my fingers ache. Seems like what I'm looking for ought to be out there, but all I ever find are things that embrace all the modern options we don't have here, or else things that are way too limited. Somehow, a 2016 version of the Innovator 48 just doesn't seem to exist.

Or, am I wrong about that?

 

[derekleffew]

... I'll be honest that I don't know if anyone makes a board with 2 rows of 48 sliders.

Yes: http://www.fullcompass.com/prod/036337-Leprecon-LP1548D
Almost: http://www.fullcompass.com/prod/123544-Lightronics-Inc-TL2448

All those faders cost a lot of money. Price puts one very near, if not squarely into, Element territory.

... Somehow, a 2016 version of the Innovator 48 just doesn't seem to exist.

I may be wrong, but I believe even the smallest Innovator used to cost $5000 back then. Again, modern equivalent would be Element or similar: Leviton http://www.stagelightingstore.com/Leviton-Piccolo-Scan-48-Channel-256-Attribute-Lighting-Console .

 

[Stevens R. Miller]

Thanks, Derek! That Leprecon is out of our range, but the Lightronics is doable.

You are correct that the Innovator was expensive, even back in 2003. It was about $4,400. Owing to some complexities of local government that I am sure you do not want me to describe in any detail here, it is easier to spend big money on things like theater equipment as part of a school's construction budget than it is to spend similar amounts as part of its operating budget. So, the original Innovator was bought by the taxpayers. The replacement is being bought by the parents of students who are in the school's drama club. Because there is no Drama Department, and no academic program actually relies on the Innovator, I don't think the school would ever care enough about it to replace it.

I also found another one from ETC that looks pretty good, and I hear a lot of good things about ETC. What do you think of that one?

 

[BillConnerFASTC]

I thought the SmartFade was phased out, or would be very soon.

If you can't have lots of handles - like 2 x 48 which I can't find (Leprecon is only 1 X 48 in two rows) - ColorSource40 or Cognito2 or a software version are probably your options. (I assume you concluded the Innovator was not repairable? Lite-Trol perhaps?)

No secrete that public schools are now or never in terms of funding. I sometimes get criticized by a vendor for including so much including spares of some things, but seems to me getting funds to replace or fix anything in a public school is near impossible, so get while the getting is good on a bond issue. That back up console may be all they have for 10 years after the first one dies in 5 years.

 

[JimOC_1]

For your situation maybe the scene setter 48 makes sense. Nobody’s job is riding on the quality of the board or show. It only gets used 3-4 times a year. Kids can run it. If the kids break it in five or ten year, the PTA can replace it without much pain. PM sent.

 

[Stevens R. Miller]

I thought the SmartFade was phased out, or would be very soon.

FullCompass's site says, "in stock." I don't much care if I get the last one, if it will meet my spec. That Innovator was obsolete the day they bought it. (I mean, a 3.5" floppy disk in the 21st century? Really?)

If you can't have lots of handles - like 2 x 48 which I can't find (Leprecon is only 1 X 48 in two rows) - ColorSource40 or Cognito2 or a software version are probably your options.

Using the faders in banks would be fine. Heck, given how abusive the kids are to those things, I'd be happiest with a device that relied on nothing but a keypad and a magic sheet.

(I assume you concluded the Innovator was not repairable? Lite-Trol perhaps?)

It's not stone-cold dead, but it's on life-support at best. One of the two master cross-faders relentlessly spikes the intensity of the outgoing cue, just before ending the cross-fade. We use the other one exclusively, and it works, but for how much longer? Several of the individual faders no longer go all the way down to zero, so we have to clear their channels with the keypad. Some of them are missing their thumbrest. Others are bent. Several are "scratchy" (that is, they don't increase/decrease values smoothly). The memory battery may well be all of thirteen years old, but you have to perform surgery on the beast to replace it. The school staff would probably have a heart attack if they saw me do that.

It's reallly a shame that it can't be replaced directly, as I have come to feel a certain fondness for it. The kids understand its basic operation (after I explain it to them). They can program cues, set times, edit them in blind mode, and so on. The showtime playback is what it ought to be: just press the same button, over and over. The kids find that boring, but they do like knowing it would be hard for anything to go wrong. Basically, it does exactly what we want, and a little more (thinking of chases here). The CS20, on the other hand, is a fine little contraption, but it is designed for modern instruments with gobos and directional controls, while imposing an arbitrary limit on the number of channels it will control (and that limit is too small). And there's that business of there being no book...

No secrete that public schools are now or never in terms of funding. I sometimes get criticized by a vendor for including so much including spares of some things, but seems to me getting funds to replace or fix anything in a public school is near impossible, so get while the getting is good on a bond issue. That back up console may be all they have for 10 years after the first one dies in 5 years.

Yup, you get it. Don't know how it is in your county, but here the authority to allocate funds belongs to the county board of supervisors. Once the allocation is made, however, spending that allocation is entirely under the control of the school board. Thus, the BOS and the SB are in a constant fight over how much it really ought to cost to build a school. The BOS would like to see things like exotic lighthing system no one uses come out of the budget, but the SB insists on its right to make those choices. When a new school has to be funded, the SB tends to tell us parents that, unless the BOS allocates US$[insert eye-popping number here] for a school, it will have dirt floors, be illuminated by kerosene lamps, and classes will each have 40 students in them. We do our part, by laying siege to the BOS building, pitchforks and torches in our hands, demanding that they not ruin our children's futures by underfunding their new school. At some point, typically, the BOS capitulates, the SB gets its millions, and we end up with another school full of exotic equipment no one knows how to use. (Disclaimer: My son is a student in those schools and I love seeing him in a modern facility. I was also a member of the BOS for four years, and got sick of being jacked around by the SB. I am conflicted person, in many ways.)

Well, at least I've finally got some options to consider that look viable. Thanks, you guys! This is one of the most helpful online forums I've ever found.

 

[Stevens R. Miller]

For your situation maybe the scene setter 48 makes sense. Nobody’s job is riding on the quality of the board or show. It only gets used 3-4 times a year. Kids can run it. If the kids break it in five or ten year, the PTA can replace it without much pain. PM sent.

I read your PM, Jim. I hadn't though of using it as a 24-scene library of cues, cross-fading between them. But I agree: kids could do that. And, the thing is really cheap!

In an extreme case, if the kids can't understand even storing a scene and cross-fading between scenes, they can at least go back to running all 48 manually.

This idea has a lot of merit, I think.

 

[Evans Poulos]

Is a used element not an option for your situation?

 

[Stevens R. Miller]

Is a used element not an option for your situation?

I think it isn't Evans, for several reasons. First, even a used Element in good shape is typically out of our price range. Second, used equipment is typically that much more vulnerable to the effects of harsh treatment than new gear, and these kids are full of harsh treatment. Third, I think it's just too complicated for middle schoolers to learn. At my son's high school, they have an Element, and it is always students who run it. But, when I ask those students how they learned to use it, they always say, "A senior taught me." That kind of perpetual institutional knowledge just isn't going to be possible in a middle school.

JimOC_1 PM'ed me with an idea I like a lot: He uses an inexpensive ADJ Scene Setter-48 in his high school. The kids define 24 scenes, then set the device in two-preset mode. The first cue is played by choosing the scene to use from the defined set of 24 and running up the fader the scene is assigned to. The next cue is preset on the other set of 24 and, when it is time to play the cue, the cross-faders are used to fade from one to the other. The third cue can then be set in the first set of faders and, again, the cross-faders fade from one to the other.

Now, this system only allows for 24 distinct scenes, but a typical middle school play isn't going to need more than 24 scenes, even if it has more than 24 cues, because many of those cues can reuse the same scene. (You can also combine scenes for more complex cues; that's getting back towards doing it manually, but the big advantage is that the presets are being done in the bank that is not live, so there's no need for the kids to be rushing as fast as they can, slamming the faders into place.)

We recently did "Aladdin Jr" at this school. There were about 98 distinct cues. But, we used the same setting for every scene in "Jafar's lair," and the same settting for every scene in "the marketplace," and so on. We could easily have had the same 98 cues while still being limited to no more than 24 distinct settings.

I like this idea a lot because it does store the scenes, so the kids don't have to remember the level for each dimmer in each scene, but they also don't need to know how to create and edit a playable cue list. It does have them manually cross-fading from one cue to the next, rather than just punching a "GO" button, which is the better way. But, truth is, they will have more fun running the cross-faders than they would just jabbing a single button 98 times.

If, for some reason, the kids can't even master programming scenes and cross-fading, they will be able to go back to the "fast and furious" approach they've been using, since they'll still have 48 individually controllable dimmers at their hands. I don't like that approach, because it's not good theater and is rough on the gear, but, at a price of $400, they can replace a battered Scene Setter-48 every few years (assuming that it, or a comparable device, is still available).

I'm going to look hard at the manuals for the Lighttronics TL2448 and ETC SmartFade SF1248. Both look like they are very close to my specs, albeit for US$1,800. But, we paid that much for the CS20, so it's a break-even.

If anyone here has personal experience with either of those, please let me know what you think of them.

 

[Jay Ashworth]

Maybe I'm wrong, but -- you already having decided to bite the bullet -- isn't the proper solution to *let the client make the $900 call*?

My boss had to hammer that one into me, since making people's decisions for them is most of what i do for a day job...

 

[RonHebbard]

1. Some of the dimmers may not be used in every production,
2. and/or, It's likely that two or more dimmers could be patched to the same control channel. Sacrifice a little flexibility for ease of/faster programming. One channel brings up a wash of six lamps (three or more dimmers), for example.
3. You have this slightly backwards, and it may make a difference in your thinking. Dimmers are patched into a control channel, not the other way around. A channel can control multiple dimmers, but a dimmer cannot be in (assigned to) multiple channels.
4. Deviating from a one-to-one patch adds another layer of complexity, but most would agree the extra trouble is worth it in the long run. See the thread https://www.controlbooth.com/threads/1-1-patch-do-you-use-it.10703/ .
5. All of this is not to say you didn't screw up and might need the larger console after all. Are there any moving lights or LEDs involved?

[Posted simultaneously with the above.]
Your "trick" of "lying" to the console by telling it your red, green, blue -gelled conventionals are one additive mixing device, even though it's at least three dimmers, is one of the most common asked about, so that users can access the console's color picker and have the console mix the desired color. I have mixed emotions about this--the first is always that users should learn to mix RGB on their own without help from the machine, but that's a whole different rant.

@derekleffew I'm welcoming your color picker rant as an educationally interesting discussion point please.
Not that I've sold myself as a designer, (always having been an LX, head LX or head SFX in a producing theatre or head LX in a scene and automation shop) but when designing at the amateur level I've always chose my wash and facial colors by envisioning the look of how different colors appear and change their relative mixes as they wrap around a spherical object such as a performer's skull and face as this is so different from how they mix when illuminating a flat surface such as a drop or flat. I wonder how well a board's color picker [and visualizers] can deal with communicating how several colors from several angles will blend on and about a spherically curved surface. Please forgive me if I haven't explained that adequately and 'take it away' @derekleffew please.
SEASON'S BEST!
Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard.

 

[Stevens R. Miller]

Maybe I'm wrong, but -- you already having decided to bite the bullet -- isn't the proper solution to *let the client make the $900 call*?

My situation is atypical. The players are all of the following:

The Drama Coach: She's a local preschool teacher with directing experience who, for a very small stipend, virtually volunteers to direct/produce two musicals every year at (what used to be) my son's middle school. She is a fabulously talented woman who knows very little about theater lighting tech, and is counting on me to deliver that knowledge.

The PTA: They are the treasury in this story and have the power to allocate money as they deem fit. The dramatic productions are actually revenue generators, so they are smart enough to know that investing some of that profit back into the theater makes good business sense. But they also include a lot of parents who see sports equipment and other things as high-priority items. Talking them into backing a four-figure purchase was a major stroke of diplomacy by The Drama Coach.

The Parents of the Drama Club Members: They are the ones who lobbied for the PTA to use proceeds from the last couple of shows to buy some new gear for the auditorium/theater, including a cyc, some footlights, and the replacement lighthing console. They know varying degrees about theater, but none of them knows anything about lighthing tech. They are counting on me to deliver that knowledge.

The Middle School Administration: They are actually pretty friendly to drama, but are nervous about allowing non-staff to be making choices about complicated equipment that will go into their existing lighting system. By showing them we could make fuller use of their existing equipment than anyone ever has before, we have earned a degree of their trust. But they are wary and making any mistakes that cause them to doubt us could be fatal to that trust.

FullCompass: A saintly vendor that has offered us an extended try-and-buy deal on the CS20, since no one here (including me) really knew if it would work for us (and, thank Ghu that they did, as it appears it just won't).

Me: I'm a volunteer with a lot of technical skills, but only early amateur level knowledge of theatrical lighthing. Pretty much everyone above is putting their faith in me to make sure they spend as little as possible in order to get a device that will actually work and that sixth, seventh, and eighth graders can use.

So, if I were to go back to them and say, "Well, the CS20 won't cut it, but I'm really, kinda, pretty, almost certain that, for another nine-hundred bucks, the CS40 will get the job done," they might say, "Oh, well, if that's what you think we need to do, we'll do it." But, it is at least as likely that they will say, "What? You told use this eighteen-hundred-dollar machine was what we needed. Now you want more money? How do we know this will work any better?"

In a sense, I really don't have a client. I have an opportunity to convince a large group of people to make a particular choice that will, for a long time, allow their children to produce plays that include decent, basic lighting cues, with those children running the lights themselves. Throwing the decision back to them will only have them questioning how useful my advice really is, and leave them that much more baffled about what to do.

As a lawyer, I face this problem all the time. You want your client to know enough to make wise choices, but you also have a duty to give advice when you think you know which choice is best. If you are competent, your advice is pretty good. Here, though, I have nowhere near the same level of expertise in theater lighting that I have in the practice of law. That's why I'm a volunteer on this, dig? I'm learning it as I go along (with a lot of great help from folks in this forum), hoping I don't screw the pooch before getting all these good and trusting folks to buy a device that will work for them.

At this point, JimOC_1's suggestion about using the low-cost Scene Setter-48 in a kind mixed programmed/manual mode looks very promising, and he's arranged for me to borrow one so I can test it directly. If it works out, I'll demonstrate it for The Drama Coach and, at that point, she will make the actual decision.

I do like the CS20, by the way. It's a pretty nifty little console with a lot features for the price. But, it won't run 48 dimmers, has a lot of features we'll never use, and is simply too complicated for a middle-schooler to operate.

More soon...