Trouble with older crew members

The worst comment when walking into a new position: "That's not the way that we used to do it!"

One of the best things I've heard is this: You will always walk into a position knowing something that the other person doesn't know, and they will always know something that you don't know. What we do is highly experimental and ever changing. If I want a light in a certain position for my design, it better end up there because I need it there. Saying it can't be there because you don't agree with the decision isn't an option if you aren't a designer. However, saying that you can't put it there because that box seat has been walled off for a new storage location and was never updated on the plans and you don't have a ladder tall enough to rig something up is something to be discussed. It is a two way street if something isn't physically possible.

Sometimes there are little intricacies with the space that we know best and can pass on to those coming in. Come on, we all know that we don't have perfect spaces. The key is passing on that info respectfully. This may be a pill that is too hard to swallow for other individuals who don't know tact. Likewise for the new person coming in. Disrespect on either side of the road won't solve the issue. Don't disrespect them and don't let them disrespect yourself. However, an individual who is disrespectful will not respond positively to disrespect coming back at them, even if it was them who started it. You can stay firm and keep your ground will maintaining composer.

On a fun side note, as an educator, I've actually had my chair (who is female) yell at me for letting the females work too and letting them lift lighting instruments to hang them. "There are plenty of men around that can do that work for them" is a direct quote. Long story short, this stereotype doesn't reside in the male population only. At the end of the day though, we all know that stereotypes aren't always true.

As an old dog and somebody that has run tons of crews with show guys, I can attest there is good and bad on both sides of the game. To be honest, I approach a load-in assuming the show people know their jobs. If they didn't they wouldn't, or shouldn't, be on the road. I don't care if they are young or old, male or female, I let them prove to me they don't know their job before I question their methods. Even then I will only refuse to do something if it dangerous or incredibly stupid to do.
We did a load-in the other day and when we got to the venue there was no power, no elevators and no way to get our lift on the second floor. There was a small personnel elevator half a building away. We decided to do a long push and get most of the stuff on the 2nd floor. Once it was all ready to go up, that elevator broke. We then carried all the small stuff up the stairs, unboxed and carried the contents up the stairs. It was not the show's fault any of the problems happened. However, when they wanted to carry unreasonable things up I said no, we would wait. It was too much chance of breaking something or hurting hands. This was dealt with in a professional manner.
On the other hand I have seen times where things are asked to be done when it is simply stupid. We were forking trusses, twenty ft sections, up to a 5ft stage when the fork ran out of gas. Instead of taking 5 minutes to change tanks they wanted to push them up a ramp. I told them no and got the fork running. It created a big argument with me refusing to yield.
Do what you have to do to get the job done but treat you locals like you would like to treated and most of the time it will work out. If they have a bias or personal problem, that needs to be dealt with between you and the steward.

I am glad you brought this topic up. I feel that there are multiple issues at play here and most of them can be addressed by you without need of PM (though the PM has a right to know is attitudes are slowing progress down to determine if he/she wants to address it). The issues at play here are
1) Likely, passive communication that leads to aggressive communication
2) Gender communication gaps
3) Social differences and norm gaps (age/gender)
4) Resistance to change
5) Lack of understanding…on both parties.
Dealing with “Mars/Venus” communication is tough. Recognize that your male boomer counterparts have been engendered by day 1 to be of assistance to women especially when it comes to physically trying tasks and “dirty” jobs. I caught myself once attempting to aid an effeminate male in taking out trash…not because he was incapable, but because I was trained to assist (it got awkward)…even to the point of helping out a man who just happened to be effeminate. By the same token, I attempted to aid a small, somewhat butch, female with carrying a large wooden A-frame ladder because I was trained that it could not be safely be done by one person…as you can imagine…I was summarily chewed out because she assumed I was helping due to her being female and not that I just saw someone in need of assistance. My suggestion to you on much of this topic is judge social norms then, rather than allow them to undermine you by taking your task, tell them to do the task first.
Next, don’t ask to do…tell in an assertive but polite tone to do things. No longer “could you please…” rather “I need you to….” or even “go do….”. If there is argument from your counterpart…tell them “This isn’t for discussion, I need you to…”. If they continue to be combative tell them “I’m sorry you feel that way” and you then leave. This is where you need to sit with both PM and the party and discuss what actions are to be taken. Don’t allow a black sheep to rule the compound. If you must, find tasks that remove them from the rest of the flock.

Please know that you are already behind as you have already set up you organizational norms by not taking control sooner. I have lead those older and way more experienced and knowledge successfully. It must start by not attempting to be there friend but by being a successful positive (no reason to sound mad) leader, never catching yourself arguing with them, and showing them that though they may not prefer it your way…you expect it that way.

Im going to approach this from the opposite side of the question to hopefully give you some incite as to what they MAY be thinking.

1. I am 36 and work for a 26 year old and with an 18 year old. I have absolutely no problem with the age of the person I am working for. However, I have 15 years of experience in fields that they have never heard of, so when I say "this is the way it should be done",its not because I have an attitude, its because I have tried it other ways and found out it didn't work. Its not out of disrespect but out of wisdom and experience. I have however established an attitude of mutual respect with my bosses and co-workers, to a point that now they ask me what is the best way to do it because I have proven to them I know what I am doing.

2. Disrespect should never be allowed. There was a time when you could discuss your differences outside. That doesn't work anymore. Now you have to go to your boss and get it worked out in a political way. You need the anointing of your bosses. They need to say "It is her way, she has final say." Until that happens you will continue to have issues.

3. How long have you worked there? How long have they worked there? I worked with a guy that had been with the company since 1969, and it took years to gain his respect and be treated as an equal. Why? Was he an ass? Maybe, but he had seen the "young buck" come in and try to change things many times in his years. A year or so later that young buck had moved on to a better job and a new buck was there. They may just have a feeling that you are the latest flash in the pan, and if they wait long enough you will be out and they will be on to the next person. Respect should be shown both ways but you need to continue to earn their trust.

4. I work with a few women and they have learned my personality, I am "that guy", they now wait for me to open the door as I will not go through it before them. If they are bringing packages into the building, I will rush to help them. I carry the boxes up the stairs if need be. Its not because I am some big macho tough guy. It is because That is the way I think things should be. There is a problem if a man cannot take the 2 seconds to walk around the car to open the door for his wife. Its about respect and honor.

This may or may not apply completely. When I toured, (back in the day) I approached each venue and crew with a "when in Rome do as the Romans". That ment sizing things up quickly. Is this a union house, college, volenteer, or independant non union venue. How is the house crew structured? Is there just one over all crew chief and or does each dept. have it's own dept. head and crew. After making these determinations, I ask myself how a person in my given position fits in to the given crew or venue structurer. A good ice breaker is having your TD or PM at the very beginning of the first day of the project or load in calling every one on the stage crew together and introduce the company crew heads to the local crew heads and crew and then break off into departments. Reintroduce yourself to your crew and get them to give you their names. Next give an overview of the days work and it's simplicty, that the thinking has been done, and that the 2 most important things involved in the work is saftey and everyone enjoying themself. I find it can be best to leave out my title or position. Too many people get hung up on titles. The fact that you have the information on what needs to be done is title enough. Some crews hear "designer" and don't feel they should respond to those "artistic" types. The old school guys give their loyalty to road heads or crew chiefs. That's just the way it is. Trust me. Save yourself. If your running a crew leave the lighting designer out of it. If you are confronted with a way of doing something different than you want, it's always most productive to hear it out and if it isn't going to work for you simply say that's great but "they want it this way". If asked who "they" are, simply say the company. Hell, if it really doesn't matter, again save yourself and let them do it their way. DON'T CHOOSE YOUR BATTLES, CHOOSE NOT TO BATTLE". It's rarely worth it. Just get it done. Always ask yourself "Does it really matter"? Another tatic if there is no crew chief ,delegate someone on the crew to be your second and tell them what you want and how you want it and have them hand out the tasks or projects you need done. Lastly as a head or chief if your involved in so much of the work going on who's watching to see if things are going well and you should be lining up the gear for the next project for when someone finishes their currant project. You need to be 1 or 2 steps ahead of what's going on. And don't be so quick to think it has anything to do with your being a women, a minority, your faith or lack of, or sexual preference. What it is most likely there is a given way of running a crew depend on your Roman determinations I mentioned at the beginning of this thread. I will stand corrected, however there is no school, book, or course, in how to run a crew. The only way to develop that SKILL is by being just a crew member and observation over much time. There are people who are great seconds and never want the head or chief job. And there are chiefs or heads that have no business running a crew. Your young and it's unlikely you have had alot of experience studying how to run a crew and get the most out of what you have to work with. Older crew members can size up leadership skills quite quickly. They also have there ways of messing with folks who are unaware of their lack of ability in a given area. You may be the best tech ever, but can't get a crew to take a coffee break. And anytime someone wants to push a box or carry something for you say thank you and let them. For some it's a way of sucking up. If your around as long as "older crew members" there will come a day you wish someone would push that box for you.

Oh ya, this is my personal feeling on the subject of any issue that arises in a department you are in charge of. NO MATTER WHAT COMES UP IN YOUR DEPARTMENT REGARDING CREW ISSUES,YOU AREN'T WORTH A SQUAT IF YOU AS A CREW CHIEF HAVE TO GO OUTSIDE OF YOUR DEPARTMENT TO RESOLVE IT. There may be an exception to this, I just don't know what it could be.

ijvpjr said:

Oh ya, this is my personal feeling on the subject of any issue that arises in a department you are in charge of. NO MATTER WHAT COMES UP IN YOUR DEPARTMENT REGARDING CREW ISSUES,YOU AREN'T WORTH A SQUAT IF YOU AS A CREW CHIEF HAVE TO GO OUTSIDE OF YOUR DEPARTMENT TO RESOLVE IT. There may be an exception to this, I just don't know what it could be.

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I can think of three right off:

1) Not all crew chiefs have the right/responsibility to hire/fire. Thus need to go to the production head to get somebody removed or to recommend.

2) Promptness or lack of. If a Prod. Manager is setting the call times and does all the contacting, then that person needs to deal with folks who are late. If you have an electrician continually running late, as crew chief I am not reprimanding, especially if the issue is with crew members in other departments as well. I report and hope the PM deals with it. Note that there are are scenarios where the PM is not at a call, nor is there an assistant. I (as electrics head) may be the person in charge. I will deal with the issue, but need to report to make sure the PM doesn't hire back if necessary.

3) ALL issues related to sex, racial or age discrimination and/or harassment get reported up the chain of command. I have no choice, it's company policy and I cannot deal with it within my department. No if and/or's or but's with this. The days of "I'll deal with it within my department with a private word" are long gone. It needs, for a myriad of legal reasons, to be dealt with higher up and documented as well.

Thanks steve, Depending on your point of I grossly overstated or understated that last thread. To be clear, anything that violates local, state, and or federal law must be reported to your PM,Risk Management Dept., Steward or who ever it is you report with the company. The same holds true for me regarding safety issues inside or outside of my department. You are also correct about firing someone. You may be able to hire crew members but terminating them falls to someone in the Production Dept., like a Production Manager, Production Coordinator, or Line Producer. 99.9% of the time it is stated in or start papers that we are hired on a day to day deal, and that you can be terminated at anytime with or without reason. This is to limit the possibility of legal action from someone being let go of fileing a wrongful termination case or court actions along those lines. If no reason for termination exists it really hard to go after a company for any perceived damages. Personally, when reporting any violation verbally, have a person with you who witness the violation with you. And if your the only one who saw or is aware of the violation, still have someone you trust witness your reporting it. And as back up, generate a memo stating the violation, witness(s),time of violation, and time and to who violation was reported. Cc the witness(s) and address it to who you reported the violation to. Witness(s) are important so as to not end up in a he said he said situation. The last thing you want is a defamation of character action against you or the company if wrong doing can't be proved. Again these are just my feelings and approaches and should not be taken as law or the only and or final way of dealing with issues of this nature.I might also be leaving out other issues that would demand outside of your department intervention. Thanks again Steve, I stand corrected!

ijvpjr said:

Thanks steve, Depending on your point of I grossly overstated or understated that last thread. To be clear, anything that violates local, state, and or federal law must be reported to your PM,Risk Management Dept., Steward or who ever it is you report with the company. The same holds true for me regarding safety issues inside or outside of my department. You are also correct about firing someone. You may be able to hire crew members but terminating them falls to someone in the Production Dept., like a Production Manager, Production Coordinator, or Line Producer. 99.9% of the time it is stated in or start papers that we are hired on a day to day deal, and that you can be terminated at anytime with or without reason. This is to limit the possibility of legal action from someone being let go of fileing a wrongful termination case or court actions along those lines. If no reason for termination exists it really hard to go after a company for any perceived damages. Personally, when reporting any violation verbally, have a person with you who witness the violation with you. And if your the only one who saw or is aware of the violation, still have someone you trust witness your reporting it. And as back up, generate a memo stating the violation, witness(s),time of violation, and time and to who violation was reported. Cc the witness(s) and address it to who you reported the violation to. Witness(s) are important so as to not end up in a he said he said situation. The last thing you want is a defamation of character action against you or the company if wrong doing can't be proved. Again these are just my feelings and approaches and should not be taken as law or the only and or final way of dealing with issues of this nature.I might also be leaving out other issues that would demand outside of your department intervention. Thanks again Steve, I stand corrected!

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Thanks for mentioning safety.

Yes, I know this is a late post, but I found this thread interesting. There is so much to be gleaned.

I like to keep a few quotes/thoughts in mind as I work with people:

It's not what you do, but what you get done.

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People don't care how much you know, until they know how much you care.

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They only respect what you inspect.

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I don't look at it as a pyramid top down management, but inverted. I like to support and maximize their talents.

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My dreams and instructions, their wisdom and expertise that will make this thing fly.

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I know they say it can't be done, but I know you are very experienced, so if you were to do this how could it be done.

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People tend to rise up and meet your expectations. Always expect the best.

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Like a bank. You need to make deposits before you make withdrawals. Praise early and often.

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and finally the whole "opening a door" or "can I help you?" thing . . . . . Let them. It is like accepting a compliment, they sincerely meant well and felt good that you allowed them to open the door.

Some great ones, there, lwinters630. I'm going to print them out and post them, somewhere. Probably my home office.

I'm curious about this one though:

They only respect what you inspect.

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Can you elaborate on that one?

Also

Like a bank. You need to make deposits before you make withdrawals. Praise early and often.

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A corollary:

Praise in public; discipline in private.

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(I learned that one from my good buddy ship.)

One of my favorites is:

"If you want to be respected, you have to be respectable"

Thanks for the formatting help derekleffew.

derekleffew said:

I'm curious about this one though: They only respect what you inspect.

Can you elaborate on that one?

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When you review what your team is doing or has done and sincerely praise or critique their work it shows that you are interested in them, respecting how well they use their skills. When critiquing, you can also respect them by letting them know that you can see from what they have done that they take great pride in doing the best possible job . . . . then let them know what needs to be done differently.

By doing this "inspecting" they will respect what they are doing and will try harder to please you by doing it even better.

Like a bank. You need to make deposits before you make withdrawals. Praise early and often.

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If I am constantly trashing someone and not looking for the good, I will bankrupt them emotionally. However if I am always (inspecting) looking for things that they have done right and giving them positive feedback, I am making deposits in their bank. That way when I really have to call them on the tough ones, there is enough still left in the bank.

We all know that productions are tough and why do we do it. Not for the paycheck! Its because we like what we do. When it stops being fun its time to stop, so I like to make it enjoyable in the little ways. Don't get me wrong, when I am in "production mode" everyone knows it, but we all are and hopefully we are all on the same team pulling the oars in the same directions.

As a male high school student I wouldn't know much about the issue, but our teacher told us a story once. He told us about how when he was in college he was hired to do a professional show at a pretty big theater in town. He was only 19 at the time, and most of the union crews chuckled when they saw him walk in. But they were amazed when he started barking orders at them using correct terms and what not. He told me that unless you use the exact names for things most of the older guys in the industry will just laugh at you. But this was like 30 years ago, and he is a man, so if it really is a sexism issue you may want to let your boss know.

Im only in my senior year of collage for lighting design so I can't say much, but I have dealt with a few macho underclassmen guys in my department, and the best advice I got was from two of my professors, one of witch is a female union set designer who also works for ABC and the other a male lighting designer, and it was that I'm going to get it throughout my whole career and the best way to avoid it it to do good work, just smile and do your job well and no can mess with you too much, you just have to keep your cool and get the job done and done well, as well as to keep in mind the you never stop learning. Another one of my professors who is the TD also told me I had more testosterone then the majority of the guys in the department and could beat most of them up, and I'm tall but kinda skinny and bony, he also told me I would have to deal with guys wanting to "do more then just work with me", witch made me laugh, but I have already dealt with that and just keep my own and don't let people get to me and most are surprised when I turn them down in a way that doesn't cause drama, and earns respect.

witch is a female

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Witch or Which?

As a guy, I can definitely say that there's sexism in the theater. In the primary theater I work at and most of the places I've done work, it's an understood rule that if you pull your weight you'll get respect, but trying to demand respect will do exactly the opposite. Since Theatre is so grounded in tradition and teamwork is necessary, you have to do your best to get anywhere with older technicians and be willing to work past anyone who doesn't give their best. It may take time, but if you just work your hardest and know what you're doing, the respect will come.

Which or witch, college or collage. While these may be minor issues in the grand scheme of things, they too can affect your career path. See this thread: http://www.controlbooth.com/forums/new-member-board/8599-cb-technical-forum-english-class.html

lwinters630 said:

Witch or Which?

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Which, sorry I was typing really quickly, and was on a break during a dress rehearsal, I'm also not the best at spelling and usually have to proof read everything I write like three times

Suzzi said:

Which, sorry I was typing really quickly, and was on a break during a dress rehearsal, I'm also not the best at spelling and usually have to proof read everything I write like three times

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I actually pointed it (witch) out as a spoof, a joke, as the form was discussing women, I thought the typo was kinda funny.

I too try to make spell checker my friend, but there are those times when it slips right by.