Control/Dimming 208 volt on 2P&G?
- Thread starterDMXpro
- Start date
STEVETERRY
Well-Known Member
1. The ANSI E1.24 standard for stage pin connectors requires that the connections to the connector are
--Ungrounded conductor (hot)
--Grounded conductor (neutral)
--Grounding conductor (equipment ground)
2. The 20 amp pin connector is dual rated 125/250V. However, (1) above applies to all voltages. So the only place that the connector could be used at voltages higher than 125V is in 230/240 markets where the neutral is still connected to one of the pins.
3. The UL489 connector standard now references E1.24 for stage pin connectors.
4. A stage pin connector is not rated to carry three-phase power under any circumstances.
ST
I don't see where (until post#4) anyone specified 20, 30, 60, or 100A.
From Stage Pin Plug 100 Amp (250V) - Filmtools :
From http://www.unionconnector.com/pdf/Pin-Connector-Brochure.pdf :
From Stage Pin Plug 100 Amp (250V) - Filmtools :
From http://www.unionconnector.com/pdf/Pin-Connector-Brochure.pdf :
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Because no one has yet asked: what are you trying yo do, OP?
DMXpro
Active Member
Nothing specific, I was just wondering. And I'm wondering because I actually SAW a NEMA 6-15 receptacle labeled "208 VOLTS", so I didn't know if 208 Volt 3ph. could be carried on 3 conductors. I didn't think so, but then again, I don't know everything about 3 phase power, so there you go.
STEVETERRY
Well-Known Member
While the L6-20 is not rated at 120V, nor does it have a designated neutral contact, there is no doubt that it can physically deal with that voltage.
I suppose there is an argument that with the addition of the appropriate adapter to feed a mated pair of L6-20 connectors with a lower voltage, the rating of the L6-20 fades into the background as not relevant. Of course, if there were other L6-20 female outlets in the system operating at 208V, this would be a problem. Per the NEC, the same connector cannot be used in a facility at different voltage ratings.
There is no doubt that universal switch mode power supplies complicate this problem. This is why PowerCon cordsets with different male connectors have become popular in helping gear to "cross the pond".
ST
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Does E1.24 not consider the 2P&G-60A/240V and 2P&G-100A/240V variants, as manufactured by Union Connector, Group 5, and (possibly) others?
This one sports an ETL listing:
Group5 100 Amp/220 Volt Female Inline DSS (yellow) | Marinco
-----
There's a regional lighting company from Florida I believe that uses the 2P&G-20 to carry bi-phase power for its moving lights. Seems like bad practice to me.
See also the thread http://www.controlbooth.com/forums/lighting-electrics/27205-using-208v-nema-5-15-a.html .
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You're confusing two different issues here. A 3-phase power system requires either 4 or 5 wires, depending on the implementation. The 4-wire version is 3 hots (one for each phase) and an earth ground, with no neutral wire. The 5-wire implementation contains the 4 wires mentioned above, plus a neutral wire, allowing for dual voltages in the system - 208v phase to phase, and 120v phase to neutral. As Footer mentioned, it's impossible to have a 3-phase system on a plug with only 3 wires.
208 volts is not the same as 3-phase. Though normally 208 volts comes from a 3-phase distribution source, the fixtures you are talking about are actually single phase devices with only 2 current-carrying conductors plus the ground. The confusion comes since these devices can run on 2 legs of a 3-phase system, or for that matter 2 legs of a single phase system, where the leg to leg voltage is 240 volts.
Generally speaking, the NEC doesn't differentiate between operating at 208 volts or 240 volts with regard to plugs and sockets. The 6-series of plugs can be fed with either 240 volts leg to leg, if the electrical service is single phase, or 208 volts leg to leg if the electrical service is 3-phase, and still be fully code-compliant. Seing a NEMA 6-15 receptacle labeled 208 volts is neither illegal or unusual. I would guess the vast majority of 6-series devices are actually fed via a 3-phase service, since nearly all commercial buildings have 3-phase power.
Seeing a NEMA 5-15 receptacle labeled 208 volts would be a serious code violation, and extremely dangerous, as the 5-series of devices is 120 volts only - one hot, one neutral.
STEVETERRY
Well-Known Member
Does E1.24 not consider the 2P&G-60A/240V and 2P&G-100A/240V variants, as manufactured by Union Connector, Group 5, and (possibly) others?
This one sports an ETL listing:
Group5 100 Amp/220 Volt Female Inline DSS (yellow) | Marinco
-----
There's a regional lighting company from Florida I believe that uses the 2P&G-20 to carry bi-phase power for its moving lights. Seems like bad practice to me.
See also the thread http://www.controlbooth.com/forums/lighting-electrics/27205-using-208v-nema-5-15-a.html .
Only the 100A 250V connector is in the standard as a Type 6 (not neutral grounded).
The 60A 250V-only connector(if it still exists, which I don't think it does because no manufacturer made mention of it during the E1.24 revision and public comment process) would no longer be listable under UL498. Note that the "normal' 60A connector (a Type 5) has a dual 125/250V listing but must be used on a grounded neutral system.
ST
DMXpro
Active Member
...Which is funny, since the only real difference is the blade orientation. 6-15 has collinear blades, a 5-15 has parallel blades. I think a 5-15 would handle 208V just fine, but the code compliance makes sense: The blade orientation keeps someone from plugging a 120V device into a 208V (or 240V, for that matter) circuit. Thus, I don't think it would be "extremely dangerous". ( Illegal, yes.)
It's not particularly funny, nor trivial. The danger doesn't come in the form of a piece of copper turned sideways, but the violation of the keying system that prevents devices from being plugged into the wrong voltage and/or current service. This is a significant fire/life safety issue - putting 208 volts into your space heater, hair drier, light fixture, motor, etc. can not only cause equipment damage, but kill you and/or burn your building down.
^X2!
Uh, yeah dude, it is extremely dangerous. Just about the only time something wouldn't fail catastrophically in that situation would be if a switching power supply with auto voltage ranging was plugged in.
Like TJCornish said above, the danger isn't from the physical outlet itelf- the conductors and body material are perfectly capable of handling the increased voltage. The danger comes from someone who thinks it's a normal outlet plugging in something that can't handle double (or slightly less than double) its rated voltage.
Uh, yeah dude, it is extremely dangerous. Just about the only time something wouldn't fail catastrophically in that situation would be if a switching power supply with auto voltage ranging was plugged in.
Like TJCornish said above, the danger isn't from the physical outlet itelf- the conductors and body material are perfectly capable of handling the increased voltage. The danger comes from someone who thinks it's a normal outlet plugging in something that can't handle double (or slightly less than double) its rated voltage.
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JD
Well-Known Member
Having spent years in the "Club" scene, and having dealt with house crews that were paid in Beer, you don't want anything that could be plugged into anything that would cause something bad to happen!
We think of ourselves as intelligent, but lack of sleep can have the same effect as beer. Codes are there for the same reason there are seat belts in cars.
We think of ourselves as intelligent, but lack of sleep can have the same effect as beer. Codes are there for the same reason there are seat belts in cars.
ProgrammerInTraining
Member
ive done it before without issue, i had a distro box with stagepin outlets and needed to power up a water heater that needed 208v all we did was switch the banded feeder around and put a hot where the neutral should have been on the distro then changed the connector on the female end of the 20 amp cable so the water heater could plug in. it worked fine without an issue and ran for over a month.
copper is copper.
copper is copper.
"copper is copper" and "i should even let the thought entermymind are two completely different things. ThEven now to the point, this is probably the stupidest method i could think of to do this. What did you do with the now open ohot? What about the installing person who needed power for a light and ended up causing a fire? And you left this in place for a month? Entirely unacceptable.
Wow, This is so ridiculously irresponsible it is borderline criminal.
Not only did you do something dangerous, you left it that way for over a month.
Please, think before you act, and think of the consequences of your actions.
This easily could have injured someone, or caused property damage.
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