Wow! I hope you are being ironic, or something akin to humor because; ****! Some of my colleagues that have posted replies have been judicious in how they describe that behavior. I don't feel so inclined. That is some DUMB ***** S#!T...The Axiom "Just because you can do something, doesn't mean you SHOULD do something" does apply when you are modifying an electrical service just because you need convenient power for an item! I suggest a few YEARS of electrical safety training! Bad Stagehand, No Donut!
Control/Dimming 208 volt on 2P&G?
- Thread starterDMXpro
- Start date
ProgrammerInTraining
Member
we gaff taped the distro so nobody else uses it, and if you think this is bad then you should come work in the wild west where we must get things done even when the budget doesn't provide the proper equiptment to do so. ive seen way worse, perfect example is just yesterday i saw bare end zip cord pushed into an edison outlet, I'd have to imagine they didnt have a male add a tap. its just the way it is sometimes, if the boss wants something done i dont want to give excuses. I should be but prefer not to be the guy who says "hey guys this seems like a bad idea". but as stated just about any given set theres always gonna be things rigged that picky people will point out.
lwinters630
Well-Known Member
Amazing! Death at the price of a pay check? On the legal side it is criminal negligence. The courts will view that a reasonable person in that position would have known that this type of wiring would injure or kill someone, thus making you personally liable. No employer vail to protect you. Also, if you know something is likely to injure someone (even if you did not wire/rig it) and do not report or take action, your knowledge is liability.
Lets talk about how to do it the safe way.
As to the OP, NO. Three phase requires 4 or 5 wires.
Lets talk about how to do it the safe way.
As to the OP, NO. Three phase requires 4 or 5 wires.
Somebody in China has fixed that pesky 6-15/5-15 problem once and for all.
Behold, one receptacle to rule them all
From this thread 'X' receptacles?
Dover
Behold, one receptacle to rule them all
From this thread 'X' receptacles?
Dover
You are not making yourself sound any better. If your employer is not willing to spend the money to do things safely, or even close to safely, you should seek another employer, and report the current one to osha/your local theater labor companies/controlbooth. My life is not equivilent to the price of an add-a-tap, and any company that valued me so would no longer see my services.
More to the point, when you suggest these solutions in a public forum, you are endorsing them as viable options. You now have put your name behind the idea that "copper is copper" and that "things get done even when the budget doesn't provide for it" and as such, you are telling anyone who doesn't have money, or experience, that they can just shove wires in anywhere and it will be okay, because you have done it and it's safe. Do you really want that responsibility? I'd recommend you listen to people on this forum who understand safety, rather than try and advise others, based on your recent posts.
You may have known what they gaff tape meant, that you'd just bypassed any kind of safety device on the distro, but do other people? A month can be a long time, and depending on what was going on at the time, could mean a massive influx of crews. You can never trust that someone is going to know what that tape meant. Or better yet, what if you are suddenly not around for whatever reason? Someone else is then responsible for this mess.
I too await STEVETERRY's response with bated breath.
I too await STEVETERRY's response with bated breath.
208 single phase derived off of 2 of the 3 legs of a 3 phase system is very common around movers. What is typically the neutral is the second hot leg and ground always remains ground. Typically these 208 v connectors have a different color shell but work the same as a typical 120v plug when connected to a 120v soco. Typically when you on the road you have 3-4 groups of soco. 120v dimmed circuits, 120 non dimmed for Foggers, video displays, LEDs, and so forth, and 208 non dimmed for movers. Sometimes you will have audio guys who use soco to feed their line arrays. Personally I like using stage pin for dimmers, Edison for 120v, and L6-20, L6-30 for 208v stuff than there is no confusion, though in all cases label, label, label. All soco looks the same though the voltages will not be.
jhochb
Active Member
Good Morning
It looks like your in LA.
Are you working in one of the clubs or is it a production company?
I could see a club cheeping out on things but if it a production company, I'd hi-tail it to someplace that knows what thier doing & has insurance. A company that allows that level of work shouldn't be around long.
There are a ton of places you can go.
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Wow! You work in the Wild West? Isn't that cute! Now, go wrangle up any of a number of electrical training manuals that are probably linked somewhere on this forum, take the time to read them, and have a little more respect for yourself, the people you work with and your customers. And let us know who you are and where you work. Either you or the company/show/facility you work at are a THREAT to the safety and well being of, well everybody! People can whine about "budget" and "picky" people and "excuses" all they want. As ingenious as you may think you are being by providing someone with a no cost solution, it is frankly IGNORANT and deserving of as much ridicule as can be heaped upon your posts. But seriously. Safety First! I sleep well a night knowing I haven't killed anyone due to negligent behavior in the workplace. As another poster says, if your boss requires this, you should find a different gig. F*@k your boss, or F*@k your inability to stand up for what is right. One or the other. If you don't stand up for what is right, you are WEAK, and personally LIABLE for anything you do or observe that is not up to code. Jeez. (apologies to the forum for my language...)
STEVETERRY
Well-Known Member
This thread proves to me, without doubt, that electrical training in our industry is not in good shape. There is an astonishing amount of ignorance and bad practice encapsulated here. Furthermore, the fact that these "solutions" are being promulgated on a public forum where many non-professionals hang out just makes the situation even more egregious. I think some critical points have been missed in the discussion:
1. NEMA connector types exist for an important reason: when one encounters a given type, say a 5-15, ones wants to be assured that the nominal voltage present at the connector is that of the connector rating (125V) and the branch circuit will support the current rating of the connector (15A).
2. Using connectors at ratings other than their marked ratings breaks the assumption of (1) above. This is dangerous anarchy, with life-safety implications. It makes no difference that the copper in the connector can deal with the improper voltage and current--this is an issue of known ratings and non-interchangeability.
3. Every ungrounded conductor in a circuit needs an overcurrent protective device. A single-phase 208V circuit has two ungrounded conductors, thus requiring two poles of overcurrent protective device. If those two poles are breakers, they need to be handle-tied with a method identified for the purpose. Using neutrals as ungrounded conductors in a power distribution breaks this two-pole requirement, as neutral conductors are not allowed to have overcurrent protective devices. This is extremely dangerous, since a circuit wired in this manner has one pole 120V above ground, even with all overcurrent protective devices tripped, blown, or shut off.
4.Socapex-type 19-pin connectors used with two different pinouts (120V and 208V circuits) remain an ongoing safety problem for our industry, and one that has resisted non-interchangeability solutions that have been put forward. The tremendous volume of Socapex trunk cables in worldwide rental inventories may have something to do with this. If the inspection community ever gets their teeth into this issue, the decision about a solution will be taken out of the hands of our industry.
Many of us have done astonishingly dangerous and dumb things in our careers, me included. However, as I learned more, I did fewer stupid things. "My boss told me to get it done" can never be a justification for poor planning that requires a dangerous solution. This forum is a nexus of many people who are experts in this field, and experts in safety. They are not experts in "what can you get away with". I suggest that some of the participants in this thread would do well to increase their level of knowledge and their commitment to safety.
ST
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It seems like the least intrusive solution would be to go with the Christie solution, which would only require replacing breakins/outs.
The best solution probably involves replacing socapex entirely... for many other reasons.
The best solution probably involves replacing socapex entirely... for many other reasons.
JD
Well-Known Member
Yes, I remember that thread. Although the method protects equipment, it introduces a new danger as well: If a 120 breakout is used, common trip is broken up on the breakers. Example- It the "load #1" breaker is off, you still have a live hot leg on the load #1 breakout.
The only solution that comes to mind is to change the keying on the soco connector itself, as in current keying would be for 120v, and a new keying would be used for 208 runs. Again, the problem is that there is so much of it out there!
STEVETERRY
Well-Known Member
One proposed keying solution involved the use of the pin 19 position, which is not used.
--On 208V trunk females, block the pin 19 pin position with a threaded insert. This could be removable and field installable on trunk cable females.
--On 208V breakout males, remove pin 19, thus allowing connection to a "blocked" 208V female.
--On 120V breakout males, populate pin 19, stopping insertion into a blocked 208V female.
TMB actually made some prototypes of the blocking pins. When proposed to a number of key rental players about 12 years ago, this fell like a lead balloon. It seemed like nobody thought there was a problem to be solved.
ST
techieman33
Well-Known Member
Regarding my post I did not specify how all of this breaks down at the distro. Bates connectors, some of the most common stage pin or 2 p&g connectors are rated for 20 amps at 125 volts or 15 amps at 240 volts. Also in the distros for 208 what we would call the neutral in a typical 120v distro this is the second hot leg, leg y. Each pair of legs feeding to the soco are breakered. You should never try to use a 120v as a 240v distro or vice versa. I have never seen this done or have ever even thought ( i would not even use the word consider) about doing such a thing. I have seen what happens when the neutral is dropped out of the circuit and it gets very ugly. Now this is where things go wrong. Most companies use double pole 20 amp circuits to feed their movers but then they will use a stage pin fan out. Bates are only rated for 15 amps at 240. So you can overload the connector. I am completely comfortable using soco for 120 and 240 both. This is why we strictly stay with stage pin for dimmers, Edison (20amp females in the fan outs) for 120v non dim, and L6-20 for movers. We do have some things that require the use of L-30's and we have a seperate distro for that that uses individual runs of L6-30's to 30 amp double pole breakers. One tech does the labeling and the way it is done is the soco gets labeled on both ends while it is still coiled up so there is no mix ups. Than it is ran to the truss. If another piece of soco is added it is labeled on both ends with an identical label just like the first piece. I did rent 120v distros from one company and when they arrived they had all 30 amp breakers and a pile of Edison fan outs. I asked them what is the deal, they were motion labs distros but I know motion labs would never build a distro with 30 amp breakers to soco. They said they had issues with the 20 amp breakers tripping on long runs. Personally I was speachless and was trying to remain professional without totally freaking out on this guy. To make a long story short I made them swap all of the breakers to 20 amp.
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