A New Stage!

[Robert F Jarvis]

If you had to design/purchase ALL the lighting from scratch for a brand new 450 seat community theatre that puts on straight plays, musicals and occasional small band shows what would you consider to be a good mix of legacy (incandescent) and more modern 'smart' fixtures? Clearly LEDs won't supply the intensity needed (at a reasonable cost) in some areas whilst being able to change colors and move some lights might be cool for some shows.
Big question I know - sorry!

 

[Les]

I would be hard-pressed to buy any quartz fixtures unless strictly for FOH and even then, LED is feasible within reason, though expensive. I don't think we'll eliminate our 30 FOH Shakespeare 20° fixtures anytime soon, but we're working one grant at a time. If starting fresh, I would shoot for 100% LED plus maybe a dozen conventional Source Four ellipsoidals with accompanying standalone dimmers and a selection of lens tubes. No need for any other halogen fixtures (cyc, wash, etc) in my opinion. If I had to skimp anywhere, I would probably go halogen on the FOH rail but still work in a dozen or so LED profiles for special effects.

We purchased 12 Elation SixPar 200's and 8 Altman SpectraCyc 100's a couple of years ago and I don't miss the beasts they replaced _at all_. Our space has a large semithrust which was primarily lit using 1K par 64's - about 12 per side. I have it down to three SixPar's per side and think it looks excellent. With 8-12 more SixPars, I can feel fine about liquidating the old par's entirely.

We kept the old Cyc fixtures in case we ever needed to do a groundrow, but they haven't been touched (except to rob clamps and safety cables) since they were relegated to the storage room.

If looking at moving lights; maybe 8-12 units with a 75/25 mix of spots and washes. I find moving head washes very useful for live theatre (though we use 5 VL500's), and spots are good for flash-n-trash or hitting a mirror ball. Things like that. People tell themselves they'll use them as re-focusing specials, but I have yet to see that happen 100% successfully. You almost always sacrifice having ideal angles on at least a few of those marks, and you have to spend quite a bit for features such as framing shutters. That's where my "dozen or so" LED profiles would come in.

 

[SteveB]

If you had to design/purchase ALL the lighting from scratch for a brand new 450 seat community theatre that puts on straight plays, musicals and occasional small band shows what would you consider to be a good mix of legacy (incandescent) and more modern 'smart' fixtures? Clearly LEDs won't supply the intensity needed (at a reasonable cost) in some areas whilst being able to change colors and move some lights might be cool for some shows.
Big question I know - sorry!

I don't think I'd put ANY conventionals in. All LED.

On a new building, the savings in infrastructure pays for the more expensive fixtures. Few dimmers, less power overall, lower HVAC loads, fewer fixtures needing to be focused which saves labor long term, etc....

I think we've reached the point, especially in a medium size theater such as you are planning, where even FOH units are bright enough to do the job. Longer throws - 75ft., etc.... I don't think 575w equiv. units can cut it, but shorter FOH distances, yes. LED movers in places they make sense, static LED's where you can easily get to them, etc....

 

[EdSavoie]

From a local demo I had on Wednesday, I'd certainly say LED in midrange pricing ($1500 a light) is a distinct possibility.

I need to clarify some stuff this week before I go on talking further, but they had a 200W unit sign the death certificate on our 1KW Strand Lekolites...


On another note, health and safety around here is really paranoid about our CD-80 dimmer. They want all H.S central dimmer rack systems GONE for fear of someone getting a 300A arc flash in the face, or lack thereof by the time that's happened...

Are they worrying too much? Probably. But the ability to just have normal 15 or 20A circuits everywhere is a pretty attractive idea...

 

[SteveB]

Not at all clear how a CD80 would cause arc flash concerns, unless folks are swapping a lot of modules around without power down. Can't think I've ever heard of a CD80 or Sensor rack get an arc flash.

 

[Les]

From a local demo I had on Wednesday, I'd certainly say LED in midrange pricing ($1500 a light) is a distinct possibility.

Heck even our $500 Elations did well to replace the Par 64's at our relatively short throws. I can see what you're saying when it comes to ellipsoidals, though. You have to shake the pockets much harder to get a one-for-one replacement of a Source Four.

On another note, health and safety around here is really paranoid about our CD-80 dimmer. They want all H.S central dimmer rack systems GONE for fear of someone getting a 300A arc flash in the face, or lack thereof by the time that's happened...

Are they worrying too much? Probably. But the ability to just have normal 15 or 20A circuits everywhere is a pretty attractive idea...

I can understand their thought process. During a walk-through at a high school, I witnessed the cleaning of a Sensor rack with half its modules removed and a student vacuuming the bottom of the chassis — with the power still on! They assumed that turning off each module's breaker prior to removal somehow made things safe. Students (and their teachers) can have the best intentions while simultaneously creating very dangerous situations. Theatres are a dangerous place to be, and under normal operating conditions, a dimmer rack is quite safe. But while idiot-proofing the entire facility is an exercise in futility, removing as many high-energy hazards as possible is a good idea and if it gets you in LEDs sooner...

 

[BillConnerFASTC]

100% LED is my recommendation. With the mix in a new build, you have the expenses of both.

If you have legacy fixtures, some portable dimmers - ETCs ES750 or Philips BakPak - might make sense.

 

[Aaron Clarke]

100% LED is my recommendation. With the mix in a new build, you have the expenses of both.

If you have legacy fixtures, some portable dimmers - ETCs ES750 or Philips BakPak - might make sense.

Having a few portable dimmers would be good for specials, rental gear, household fixtures used in sets and other handmade community theatre scenic oddities.

Curious if one was going all LED do you think would it be worth the expense of a reasonable capacity company switch should you ever need a large conventional dimmer capacity (or anything else for the matter) for some event?

 

[RonHebbard]

From a local demo I had on Wednesday, I'd certainly say LED in midrange pricing ($1500 a light) is a distinct possibility.

I need to clarify some stuff this week before I go on talking further, but they had a 200W unit sign the death certificate on our 1KW Strand Lekolites...


On another note, health and safety around here is really paranoid about our CD-80 dimmer. They want all H.S central dimmer rack systems GONE for fear of someone getting a 300A arc flash in the face, or lack thereof by the time that's happened...

Are they worrying too much? Probably. But the ability to just have normal 15 or 20A circuits everywhere is a pretty attractive idea...

What are you meaning when you typed "H.S"?
Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard.

 

[JohnD]

What are you meaning when you typed "H.S"?
Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard.

Well Ron it could be:
>>>Hysteresis Sublimation
>>>Hinky Sh....um....Schtuff
>>>High School
EDIT, oops wanted to also reply to the OP.
I am somewhat curious about this new venue. Is it a new from the ground up facility? A conversion of an existing space? Is it a proscenium stage or perhaps a black box?
Should you choose to go with tungsten halogen for your FOH positions you might also consider something like the ETC Smartbars. It has reached the point that installing large dimmer racks isn't really a great option. The dimmer per fixture costs can really add up. Going with mostly LED you also have to take into consideration some power issues. You need a good way to kill the power to the fixtures. Most circuit breakers don't do well when used as switches. There are many options for handling this.

 

[np18358]

I might add that a Theatrical Consultant would be a great addition to the project, if one is not already on board. They could help with not just lighting system design, but other Theatrical Planning as well. On a new build, a lot of planning needs to go in to coordinating with the Electrical Engineer, Architect, and others involved in the project. You certainly don't want fire sprinkler pipes right up against your lighting hang positions, etc. If you are in need of one, PM me. I know an excellent consultant in the West Palm Beach area, who has a lot of experience with venues in this size range, as well as with working on Public Projects, (if this is a public project).

 

[SteveB]

Curious if one was going all LED do you think would it be worth the expense of a reasonable capacity company switch should you ever need a large conventional dimmer capacity (or anything else for the matter) for some event?

I would include one for giggles, but tours these days that travel with a system are often heavy on LED and less likely to even need 400. maybe a 200 as well, or 2 - 200's.

 

[soundlight]

I would recommend all LED as well. The technology and intensity are definitely there. There are many, many options out there right now and I would recommend, as others have, bringing on a theatrical consultant to help you select the best products for your application.

 

[MRW Lights]

I would also ask who your end user is? Is this a facility that will be operated by trained technicians? That information will make a large impact on your units, controller and infrastructure. Do you need a turn key rig that can occasionally do fancy things, or a fancy rig that you can setup to be turn key? I run a facility similar to what you described and one of my biggest headaches is that in 24 hours I can go from union technicians to a first time high school student and we are constantly working to make our space accessible to both.

 

[EdSavoie]

To clarify, by H.S I meant High School.

As for going between trained techs and inexperienced students, perhaps having an old board on stand by for the students that has your six (or however many you have) zones, grouped colours, a few specials, etc. Pre patched with little bits of labeled tape.


As it stands, our vendor wants to radically change us from our old 48/96 Strand MX to a 10 Fader Martin M-Touch plus M-PC
I'm not exactly a fan, as even though I will be able to figure it out given some time, there's no way on earth the newer techs and most of the staff will be able to makes heads or tails of the thing...

 

[MRW Lights]

To clarify, by H.S I meant High School.


As it stands, our vendor wants to radically change us from our old 48/96 Strand MX to a 10 Fader Martin M-Touch plus M-PC
I'm not exactly a fan, as even though I will be able to figure it out given some time, there's no way on earth the newer techs and most of the staff will be able to makes heads or tails of the thing...

Before I came in to the space I'm at now the same thing happened... I now have an M2Go from Martin and an ION... don't get me wrong, the Martin Consoles are great and I do like mine, but I wouldn't consider it a "learning" console. I've been programming for *ahem* number of years and the Martin is "learnable", but I had a lot of "seasoned" technician's coming through on rentals that had some choice words for it. Enough companies came in renting outside consoles that we purchased a more "theater" friendly ION. On the other hand the Martin is my go to for our rock and roll and variety shows or essentially for when I want live busking.

 

[TNasty]

In my opinion, I'd see if you can get in touch with some other local stages that may have had a refresh or have been newly built within the past five years, and have one of their more skilled lighting technicians talk with you about what they have, how certain fixtures have performed, what their biggest gripes are, and to just demonstrate a few scenes to show how the lights wind up looking in a typical scene.

It's always good if you can get in touch with somebody who just might know their inventory on a personal level. Those YouTube videos usually don't show what you need in order to get a true sense of how stuff actually looks onstage.

 

[venuetech]

Not at all clear how a CD80 would cause arc flash concerns, unless folks are swapping a lot of modules around without power down. Can't think I've ever heard of a CD80 or Sensor rack get an arc flash.

Teacher of new facility (this was way back when) tells student that dust needs to be removed from dimmers. Gives student a vacuum with metal wand and sends him off to the dimmer rack. Student sees lots of dust in the bottom of the CD80 rack. removes vented panels (that have large thumb screws) and proceeds to vacuum. Contact made between card cage and bus bar. student survived without major trauma. Teacher blamed stupid student and went on for another 8 years with a long list of other incidents that were never her fault.

 

[Malabaristo]

Teacher blamed stupid student...

As someone who frequently works in an educational setting, I have many strong feelings about this particular statement.

 

[RonHebbard]

As someone who frequently works in an educational setting, I have many strong feelings about this particular statement.

As someone who was a student for many years and many years ago, I'll admit to having played the "stupid student" role myself many, many, times. I was the kid in the "Electrical Specialist" course who was always being paged from classes and dispatched to solve problems with anything from the wood shop's dust extractor out on the third floor roof to one of the 3 auger drives feeding coal into one of the three coal-fired boilers in the sub-basement.
Yep! Stupid student extraordinaire, that was me. I learned so many things in school that they had no idea they were teaching. I enjoyed grades nine through twelve but rarely for what they thought they were teaching.
Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard.