Building A Booth

[gafftaper]

MJW you may be able to structurally design and draw it up but you really need to the help of someone familiar with the local codes and permit process. Any advice you get here is going to have a high degree of speculation because we don't live there. I suggest you get in touch with a contractor who does remodel work on large public buildings. You should be able to find one who knows all the local code and is willing to help you design it properly and give you a price quote for the job in the process.

As for your original question. Do the legwork to find out how it can be done and how much it will cost. Put together a nice looking proposal explaining why it is important along with the How and How Much information. Try to get the music teacher's support and if you can't get it go directly to the principal or whatever board is really in charge.

I have to agree that it's not a good idea to move sound in there. My new theater has sound in a great looking but fully enclosed space with only a 4'x5' window. If I can just barely hear the audio it's perfect inside the theater. If it sounds loud enough to me at the console, it's blasting the audience out. Running sound inside an enclosed booth is like running lights with a paper bag over your head.

 

[mjw56]

im not gonna move sound in to the booth. it was just something i was thinking about a while ago when i was still a student there and didnt know much about anything. i still don't know much about sound frankly...but don't really want too. there are so many issues i have to deal with already.

seeking the help of a local contractor is a good idea and i think i know a few who might help out.
we got approval to build the booth as an eagle scout project. they will want all sorts of references as to who is being consulted for what and their qualifications so the BSA will have their butts covered.
i guess i should be able to talk to the architect for the diocese about all this. but of course the boyscout will have to do all the talking and setting up meetings and stuff.

 

[gafftaper]

Sounds like you are well on your way. Be sure to stay on top of the permits and the Fire Marshall's approval. You can be in a world of pain if the Fire Marshall decides he doesn't like your work and wants to shut down the theater until he is happy.

 

[CBR372]

Talking about projection booths turned into lightboard booths... the college im going to has this large theatre (about 900 seats or so) and its booth used to be a projection booth... so it is lined with steel... and it has a bathroom!!! and the old reel tables are still in there... nice storage for my backpack and laptop when i'm programming cues!

 

[museav]

That probably goes back to the days of nitrate or nitrocellulose film. Used up until the early 1950's, nitrate film base was very inflammable and difficult to extinguish, thus areas where it was stored and worked with had to be highly fire resistant. Today, a cinema has to be certified to show nitrate films, primarily archival films, including many special precautions involving the projection booth and the projectors themselves.

This is also why I often see issues with asbestos in projections rooms, many older 'fireproofing' methods, even into the '60's, utilized asbestos so it is not unusual to find asbestos containing materials in the wall, floor or ceiling surfaces in older projection booths.

I believe that the bathroom was from the days when you had Union projectionists and manual changeovers, it was provided so the projectionist could answer nature's call without missing a changeover or any other manual operation. Of course, the risk of fire with nitrate film stock, which can spontaneously combust, also made for a good reason to have someone in the booth at all times.

 

[mjw56]

the school has an asbestos inspection every year and the only place it exists in on the exhaust from the backup generator way in the back of the boiler room. but because i like my lungs cancer free. i put on a mask and knocked out one of the small windows to look down the wall. found nothing but pieces of mortar.
myself and the LD (also not a student) have begun to put together a loose spec for the job so the boyscout has something to work with in building his for the job. were not assembling a book. just a mental list of material and hardware. as for the window i was thinking of getting something like this.

http://www.crlaurence.com/crlapps/s...upID=9469&History=8777:8812:8898&ModelID=9469

but with a full bottom rail.

we want to be able to button up the window cause the kids sometimes get a little loud. but i like that it can be opened up for tech week so the ops can hear.

any opinions on windows. whats worked, what hasnt??

 

[mjw56]

Well just in case anyone was wondering. The Eagle Scout Project to build a booth has been approved by the school and the students troop committee. He goes before the BSA council for final approval tomorrow.

 

[mstaylor]

Sounds like an excellent Eagle project. My son and nephew are both Eagle scouts.

 

[mjw56]

Myself and the LD are both Eagles and one of the seniors just earned his a few months ago. its nice to have a few scouts around working on things, even if they cant tie a bowline behind their backs.

 

[mstaylor]

My son earned his Eagle rank and his black belt at fifteen.

 

[mjw56]

Necropost... i know
But anyway
so the booth is structural complete and it turned out ok. pictures will follow eventually. so now its time to put in all the stuff i can possibly think of. Unfortunately the Band director/Producer/head honcho thinks the pass thru that got put in is big enough to move sound into the booth, he didnt think so 6 months ago (eyes roll, sigh). so im going to install alot

Express 125 light board
24channel Mackie sound board
16 channel digital board (dont know the maker)
2 Computers (one for the projector and one for audio stuff)
Wireless mice and keyboards with under desk trays
LCD monitors (for each computer and the lightboard
projector screen controls
2 channel headset system
2 CD players
recording device
God mic with 2 channels( one to speak to the house and one to speak to the green room)
2 filing cabinets
internet connection with wireless G/N and 4 port switch
dimmered booth lights
booth speakers with and independent volume control
2 video and audio lines up to the tv Studio with monitors in the booth
Green room cam with monitor in booth
7' rack to put most of this stuff in
couple power conditioners

so my question to all of u is what have i missed, name anything at all. im going for wish list here so i can plan now for future expansion

thanks all

 

[museav]

But anyway
so the booth is structural complete and it turned out ok.

so my question to all of u is what have i missed, name anything at all. im going for wish list here so i can plan now for future expansionl

Maybe I am misunderstanding the situation, but shouldn't this type of planning have occurred prior to constructing the booth? For example, looking at you list I see two audio consoles, a lighting board, a camera, two computers with keyboards and mice and several monitors. Have you planned for counter space for all of this? Have things like the dimmable lights and power for all the gear been incorporated into the booth design and construction? Have you addressed conduit or raceway for all the connectivity noted?

As to your question, it is a bit difficult to respond when we don't know what the booth space is like (size, counter space, etc.) or what infrastructure you incorporated when building the booth or how you plan to use the booth. Basically, we don't know much about the existing facility and use or the vision for both, which makes it difficult to say what might be missing. Here's some examples:

Communications for a Green Room would typically be handled via the production communications system, however you note a separate 'god' mic for that purpose. Is there a reason specific for this requirement? Would planning for an expanded comms system make sense?

You note both a 24 channel analog console and a 16 channel digital console. Whether it is two independent mixes or might be replaced by a larger console in the future could factor into any comments.

Since you apparently have a projection screen and you note a projector computer, what about other video sources, source switching, the projector, control of all of these, etc.? Does the booth need to accommodate any of these?

Do you have a cabling path to the TV Studio? What is the purpose of monitoring that signal? Do you need to communicate with them?

What about wireless mics? If you have both the SM and the sound tech up in the booth should the wireless receivers, or at least some way to monitor them, also be located in the booth?

Is there any storage other than the two filing cabinets? Might the booth be used to store wireless mics, comms bodypacks and headsets, cables, mics, etc.?

That's just a few examples, but the gist is that one has to know where you are and where you are trying to go before they can offer useful directions.

 

[JChenault]

If your sound guy is going to be doing any live mixing ( and given your equipment list, I expect that he will )

1 - try to convince the band director that putting the sound mixing in another acoustical space where he cannot hear what the audience is hearing will not work very well. There is a reason that you see mixing consoles in the orchestra. How would he like to conduct an orchestra from the next room using a TV monitor?
2 - Set up any cable runs, etc so that when the facility comes to it's senses and decides to move the sound equipment to a location where the operator can hear the sound that it is easy to do so.

 

[mjw56]

thanks for your responses.

the audio consoles have been inserted into the design. i had a long conversation with the band director about this when i started designing and he said that he will never put audio in a booth so my window is only really big enough for 2 people plus Light op and board. he took one look at the finished window and said hes gonna move sound in. this throws my original design for a loop.

So, Proxima projector is hanging from an electric over the house, source switching will be from the projector itself. we dont do anything complicated enough to require on the fly switching.

power is adequate the 100 panel in the room has 4 slots open and only runs small lighting loads.

Mic recievers and amps are backstage in a custom built rack.

we dont have a production communication system, didnt know they existed, so i figured i would use a couple of board channels or rig something up.

the 2 boards will likely become one larger board, ive heard rumors.

i know i can get a wire to the studio but adding a line for comms is a great idea i would have missed . they use a compatible system so they should just be able to plug in (using the studio will be rare, likely only to live mix graduation to the over spill room)

the green room cam is already mounted to the back wall near the ceiling
video monitors would just be nice i guess

we have space for 2 8' tall racks plus a 2.5'ish deep counter (shallow i know, its controlled by door swing)

the room overall is 14' wide by 6 deep with a 5'8" opening in one long wall and a 3' door centered in the opposite wall. one end of the room has a small electrical panel and a ticket window so were loosing 2' there, mkaes the room effectively 12'x6'

i asked for pictures from the kid that did the project but i havent gotten them yet.

i hope what ive explained helps

thank you.

 

[mjw56]

Well its not pretty at the moment but hopefully in a couple months it will really take shape.

 

[museav]

So it serves as both Tech Booth and Ticket Window? I might try to separate those functions, I just imagine someone trying to read will call lists and talk to people while someone others are trying to run a show.

That also gets into a trade off with having sound in the booth. When you mix from the booth you want as much opening into the performance space as possible so that you can hear something resembling what the audience hears. However, if you have a large open area and have the lighting operator, SM and others in the Booth then you may have issues with patrons seated near the booth potentially being distracted by the related sounds and activities in the Booth. In retrospect, it might have been better to put in a fixed window to help separate the production activities (the SM calling cues and so on) from the audience space and to have the audio mix position out in the house.

I'm also trying to understand how a fold-up plywood door and a ticket window with openings in it provides the necessary smoke and fire separation. It may indeed do so but it just seems odd.

 

[mjw56]

I cant move the ticket sales, they were sold through the booths dutch door, which i really hated. The ticket window area will be closed off by a piece of 50% fullness black traveler(that the last show decided was ok to cut in half lengthwise) so that should help with sound and light spill. The opening pictured was supposed to get a nice aluminum framed insulated tripple slider....but the scout doing the project turned 18 2 days after finishing his project and the school let him install that crappy fold up instead so he could get the project done. we did a little test of how far sound travels out of the booth with no soundproofing installed and quiet conversation carried about 15 rows out (were only 28 rows deep). smoke separation would have been taken care of with the window i spec'd for the project but i already explained that. and the ticket window is original to the space (built in 1960).

 

[DuckJordan]

it looks to me like a very failed, attempt at a school keeping budgets to a minimum. The plywood door is not code, and if that window is not original i am betting the student on the project did not put a header in. also the whole idea of ticket sales going in with booth with absolutely no SOLID separation is a big no no, unless you plan on cutting ticket sales as soon as the show starts (it can get very noisy and hard to hear a show when you have ticket people selling tickets while a show is going on behind them). also i would definatly point the noise issue out to the director because honestly if you are going to put all the time in to building a booth. don't force the audio person to stick to a room that will honestly sound nothing like the actual room.

Quick story, went to a show in the area (wont say the name of the production) but during intermission (it was beauty and the beast musical) i heard the sound board op come out of the booth and ask the SM if they heard any squealing out of the PA system. I, being a sound guy myself, quickly turned around and asked the op why he had to ask. He responded with, the director said the booth was distracting audience members from the show because of the window being open. So upon that sound should never be located in a booth unless you have 100% certainty that the sounds are all recorded, they will always be the same out of the device you are sending out of. That means if there is any chance there is going to be live mixing involved (NO BOOTH). and yes the PA was HOT (squealed louder than a pig).

So that brings me to the curtain thing, it may just be our curtains but any black curtain i have seen in our space sheds some black... fibers after a little while which will give everything in the 5 foot vicinity a nice dust of black fibers... so putting a curtain in that space may be a problem.

as far as room goes, it doesn't look like you'll have very much room in that space for all the devices your planning on puting in there... also have you considered ventilation, i know that our small black box booth has a vent but guess what its almost an air tight room so awesome job on putting an output vent in the room but hey, there is no circulation (room is probably 20 cubic foot and its roundish so no luck putting a flat table in the dang room (another rant for another thread).

My suggestion is good equipment just try to explain to the director as best as possible that sound should always be out in the audience (yes it takes seats but its better to take 5 seats now than wait after a few shows of it being out of the way and you having 20 empty seats because the sound is horrendous.


QUICK THOUGHT:

If sound was out of the booth running the show with tickets would be much more feasible.

 

[mjw56]

A double A36 C8x11.5 is cut into the block behind that 1x12 on the wall there and is bearing on concrete filled block all the way to the slab the wall is on, or else that 1x12 would have been 1x4. i designed that header and opening and again DID NOT spec a plywood fold up. the window i spec'd for his project is linked to earlier in this thread.

And i PROMISE i don't want sound in the booth and know its bad. but its not my final decision.

Would a black curtain that has been hanging for about a decade still shed those fibers?

we don't really sell a lot of tickets after the show has started so its not a problem, usually the sales person leaves 15min after start along with the ushers and we just let the few stragglers in (its catholic school so nobody really cares about 1 or 2 tickets)

Ventilation is also a good point. there was a really bad draft in the room before this project started, so bad in the winter we lined the whole room with 2" blue Styrofoam and duct taped all the joints, and it was still cold.
ill add a small bathroom fan to the list and see if the space needs it when were done.

 

[museav]

And i PROMISE i don't want sound in the booth and know its bad. but its not my final decision.

I think the point is that we are trying to give you something to take to the parties who do make that decision and show that this is not just your supposition, but a real concern voiced by others based on experience.

Would a black curtain that has been hanging for about a decade still shed those fibers?

Would is also still be fire retardant?

Ventilation is also a good point. there was a really bad draft in the room before this project started, so bad in the winter we lined the whole room with 2" blue Styrofoam and duct taped all the joints, and it was still cold.
ill add a small bathroom fan to the list and see if the space needs it when were done.

Did you had a Mechanical Engineer involved in the booth design? It is an occupied space and has to provide appropriate heating, ventilation and cooling for both the equipment and occupants.