Building A Booth

[mjw56]

Hi everyone,

im looking into making a booth out of an existing room in the back of our auditorium which appears to have originally been a projection room/ticket booth. the walls of the room are 8" CMU and 1 wall carries the joists of the 4'deep spot booth above. i want to put in a 4'x8' window so the SM, light board op and myself ( i am the stage crew moderator) can see comfortably out to the house and stage. im not worried about the structural or layout aspects of this project as i am a co-op @ a structural engineering firm, my problem is the music department head. we tried to get something similar to this done when the new chairs were installed but he didn't go for it. i don't think its that he doesn't want the booth i think its just that he doesnt want to have to deal with the additional thing going on in the department. (he is also the director of 4 different bands and the producer for both annual shows). How do i get him to let me do this project??

 

[Footer]

Do a search for building a booth. You are going to need more then just working at a design firm before you go cutting holes in walls.

 

[mjw56]

i should have clarified that the engineers are all available for help and calcs, and i am a structural engineering student in my junior year @ drexel university and after re-rereading my initial post see that that portion is poorly worded. it should say that the structural and layout aspects are well taken care of by myself and a number of licensed PE's

 

[Footer]

I thought you were in a High School situation, hince the answer. If you got all the engineering taken care of, I would do up some drawings and get a cost estimate. I would also write up a formal proposal about why/how you are going to do this project and the benefits it will provide. Have your university maintenance dept take a look as well. I am not sure if you are private or public, but that can affect how this work has to get done. You could have some union issues as well if you want to do it yourself, if you can at all.

 

[derekleffew]

...i want to put in a 4'x8' window so the SM, light board op and myself ( i am the stage crew moderator) can see comfortably out to the house and stage. ...

A 4' high window seems unusually tall for a control booth. What is exactly a "stage crew moderator" and what function do you perform in the booth during a show?

 

[mjw56]

thanks that does help a lot. make a sales pitch!
but just to clarify some more, im @ drexel, and on Co-op at an engineering firm, and i moderate a group of high school students. i graduated from that high school in '06 and started moderating there in late 2007. no students will be doing any work on the opening in the CMU or the reinforcement going in place. frankly i just dont trust them to get it right or that it will look good if they do it and i cant afford to do it twice.

 

[mjw56]

as to what a stage crew moderator does, i take the design concept and make blueprints for building, i manage all the construction and costs (but don't directly have the power to say "ok spend the money"), watch out for the safety of the students, i give technical advice to anyone who wants it, i help build and give direction on how to use tools. and most importantly keep the students out of trouble and from killing echother. what i don't do is design the lights. basically u name it, i do it. my function during the show is to provide emergency tech advice and to again generally over see the students. and to put out fires (literally, exploding spot bulbs and a floor covered in sunflower seeds don't mix)

the 4' high window was really just an arbitrary number, first 4x8 is the same size as a piece of plywood (to lock up the opening), and between the double 2x12 header going in and the 4' hight of the window i can remove all the block up to the joists and not have to deal with blocks falling out of the head while im trying to install and ill have a sill roughly 3' off the floor

 

[Footer]

Is this a public school you are helping at? Are you paid staff or a volunteer? There are some huge issues with knocking holes in walls in a public school situation without pulling the proper permits and have the proper labor in place. If it is a public school, I doubt even if you are qualified you could do the work yourself. Added to that, you still need to consider power requirements in the room, dimming/audio connections.... etc. I am not saying it can not be done, but you need to go through the proper channels beyond the guy who is in charge of the music dept. When I was TD at a public school, the head of maintenance would have had my head if I knocked a 4x8 hole in the wall.

 

[mjw56]

First its a private school and the maintenance staff consists of 2 guys who could care less. the music department head has final say over what happens in the auditorium also.
on to technical requirements though, the dimmers ( 4 leprecon VX2400 racks in a permanent install) are already in place on a platform backstage (about 9' off the ground where the old Frankenstein light board used to be) that has a 3phase 400 amp service. the light board (ETC expression 125) is already back there( where i want the booth). i want to move the com system power supply back there as well and add an IR cam for use as a green room video feed and so we can see in the dark better. i dont think were adding much to be worried about power but there is a sub-panel in the room with 3 or 4 slots open to tap. and before anythone says anthing about opening up panels i also worked for an electrician doing service installs ( 200 amp is the largest ive ever done). the music director doesnt want to move the sound board in there but im leaveing space for that too.

i feel like im missing things that should also be in the room but i cant think of what. so if u have any ideas or more concerns throw them out there.
oh and im paid but im not on payroll. i get paid out of the operating account.

thanks for all the help and ideas so far.

 

[wfor]

Sound board inside rooms=bad idea.

You can't hear anything...
A lot of new installatiosn sink them right in the middle of the house.

 

[museav]

I see what you want to do, but not why. I assume you have been operating without this space and if you read some of the other threads here regarding booths you'll find many people trying to get out of just such spaces. There may be good reasons for doing this, it just not clear what you are really trying to accomplish and that would probably be the first aspect to address in 'selling' the concept to anyone. You have to establish and communicate the need for and benefit of something first. What problems would the booth resolve or what new capabilities and benefits would it provide? Show that the potential benefit justifies the potential cost both financially and in any associated effort, inconvenience, etc.

Assuming you are at the main Philly campus (Mandell Theater ?), there are probably many code and ordinance restrictions on what has to be done and who can do it, potentially in regards to both licensing and perhaps Union affiliations. A couple of issues that are commonly overlooked without an Architect involved are how opening up the Auditorium wall may affect fire ratings, you are effectively putting a big hole in the 'shell' of the Auditorium, and what may be required for ADA compliance. Depending on the age of the space and modifications could even run into asbestos or historical issues. And there may be practical considerations such as whether the booth requires ventilation or even a separate heating and cooling unit on a dedicated thermostat to handle the potential loads and off hours operations. And of course, moving the lighting console and comms as well as provisions for the mixing console into a new location could entail significant infrastructure (conduit, power, etc.) revisions or additions.

 

[mjw56]

The booth is not going in @ drexel its going in @ Camden Catholic high school, and from past experiences having nothing to do with the theater, projects don't have to get bid on or done by union workers and the building isn't leased. the reason i want a booth is first to make a sort of Brain for the auditorium, a place where a few key personel can sit and run the show. i hope it will also fix a heirachial problem we have been having. our current system of an SM, asst. SM and Right and left wing captains leaves rightwing kind of mnagement heavy (the SM has been running things from RW). i figure by moving the SM to the booth, he will be closer to all the tech for calling cues (our com system sounds like **** and is hard to hear on some stations) and able to manage and delegate (VS. doing it himsel). ill have the ASM oversee most of the things happening on stage, and the wing captains managing their individual crews. i know it souds like alot of management but the titles keep people happy and having a feeling of responsibility which helps alot when something needs to get done. the students dont get anything in return for their wok ( i would say something about pride but they all have this i dont give a **** attitude) im working on trying to make stage crew fulfill their arts elective or service hour requirements but as for now titles and t-shirts are all i have to work with.

 

[museav]

The code and ordinance issues would likely still apply. For example, the perimeter of a public assembly space often has to be a one or two hour rated construction, if it turn out that the wall you are considering knocking a hole in is a rated wall then it would lose any rating. It might also be that converting what has apparently been unoccupied space into occupied space will require other changes (sprinklers, accessibility, ventilation, etc.) to be code compliant. Maybe you already have people involved, such as a licensed Architect (many of the potential issues are Architectural and not Engineering related), who can assess and address all such issues but I was trying to identify that they do need to be addressed.

I think that this may be the type of issues you need to address up front, not necessarily the answers but that these issues will be addressed, to let the people in charge know it is being handled and there will be no nasty surprises that they then get dragged into later on.

 

[mjw56]

the school was completed in '60 or '61 and the audiriu, was completed in '62 and there's no sprinkler system in the entire school so....

From what i can tell the original intent of the room was a projection booth (the wall in question currently has 3 really small windows about 4 SF total and are trimmed in wood). so i grabbed my NJ building code 2006 and checked it out

Section 409.2
Every projection room shall be of permanent construction consistent with the construction requirements for the type of building (occupancy class A-1) in which the projection room is located. openings are not required to be protected.
The room shall have a floor area of not less than 80 sf for one machine and not less than 40 SF for every additional machine. ........ The projection room and the rooms appurtenant thereto shall have a ceiling height of not less than 7'6". the aggregate of openings for projection equipment shall not exceed 25% of the area of the wall between the projection room and the auditorium. openings shall be provided with glass or other approved material, so as to close completely the opening. ( the ommited portion speaks about distances between projectors)

ok, with hthat info-dump behind us, the first paragraph says the opening can be open and the second says it must be closed. any ideas??? and based on wall measurements of 8x12 i can have a max opening of 4x6(24 sf)

also, table 601, an interior bearing wall of type 1 construction must have a 3hr fire rating. the same wall in type 2 construction requires only a 1 hr fire rating. so does anyone know the difference between type 1 and 2 construction. (they are both completely made of noncombustable materials).

the room also contains 2 singlepane 1/4" glass ticket windows so while the room has not been occupied for quite a while the original design showed it as an occupied space.

so if anyone knows the answer to any of theese questions and whishes to share that would be great. but in the meantime i think i will assume the worst and figure out what a 3 hour fire rated opening is made out of. thanks for everyones help.

 

[Footer]

Film projectors were notorious for catching on fire. Essentially projection booths had to become a firebox. One of the venues I work at here in NY has a projector room with working projectors and drop doors above each "port" with heat sensitive links. So.... fire=doors drop. If the room is still deemed a projection booth you can not open it up as it currently stands.

 

[museav]

Fire ratings and such are not where you want to guess. You might want to check with the local code and planning officials as to whether any approvals, permits, etc. might be required as those may in turn require stamped drawings. You might also want to discuss the fire issues with the local fire officials, they are the final arbiters.

The points you bring up show some of the potential issues. I don't know what the code requirements were for Projection Rooms back when the building was built but they likely have changed. For example, in 1962 there were probably no requirements for sprinkler systems but any renovation or changes could require bringing everything up to current codes and that may require adding sprinklers or improving wall constructions. I'm also not sure how current code might differentiate between a dedicated Projection Room and a more multipurpose Booth. Accessibility also often also has to be addressed in any renovations, the ADA was not around in the early 60's. Ceiling tiles and flooring containing asbestos were common in that period so if you plan on tearing up the floors or ceiling that could be a factor. The same for lead paint on the walls since you plan to cut into them. All of these are why you really want to get someone familiar with such renovations involved to at least identify what factors nay have to be addressed. I have seen many 'small' theatre renovation projects end up investing more effort and money on these types of issues than on the primary aspects of the renovation, I've also seen such issues delay or even terminate renovation plans.

 

[tjrobb]

Type 1 versus type 2. While this can vary based on which code you use, the basics are relatively straightforward.

Type one- MAXIMUM passive fire protection. We're talking 3 or 4 hour rated walls, ceilings, etc. Think OCD bunker building. Not seen often except where really large buildings are needed or where extreme fire hazard is present. I don't think you can build with anything other than concrete due to the requirements.

Type two- a little less insane, but still 2-4 hour ratings on all walls, ceilings, etc. Allows (sometimes) concrete-cased steel and similar items. Much more common than T1, if only because of price.

 

[mstaylor]

I don't know the local code, may be tougher, but in many areas the need to bring the room to code is a tied to a percentage of remodel. If you exceed a certain percentage you have to bring everything up to code, sprinklers, wiring, fire ratings, all other related codes. It is something you definitely need to check locally.

 

[mjw56]

the auditorium seats about 1000. the columns are all on the perimeter of the surface of 1 flange of all of them is exposed. the roof is supported by 40" deep Bar joists and the ceiling is approximately 1" of plaster. none of the steel is fireproofed. all the doors are hollow steel there's so fire curtain, no smoke doors in the roof just exit signs and fire system strobes. so I'm guessing its type 2. and the room constitutes 1% of the space

 

[tjrobb]

Forgot a quirk: steel over 20' from the floor doesn't need fireproofing (usually).

Hmmm, what you are talking about (exposed steel to grade level) is type 2 - 000 according to the NFPA. Inherently fire-resistant (the steel part), but without any actual fire rating. Strangely, I have no idea how a 1000-seat theatre would EVER get away with not using a type one building. Then again, you did say it was 3 or 4 decades old.

Thank goodness you are under 50%. That is the breakover (again, NFPA) to deny grandfathering you in. And with >300 seats... that would have meant sprinklers!