"Celtic Woman" Annoys Me

[DrPinto]

Here I am, stuck on a couch, trying to shake a cold and wishing there was something...ok....ANYTHING interesting on TV. While surfing I noticed that it must be Celtic Woman month on PBS. It seems like they keep playing the Celtic Woman concert every few hours. That and a show on installing a door frame on a crooked house. But the concert caught my attention. What I like about it is seeing how the lighting is done. I don't know who does it, but they certainly know how to make a stage look fantastic. It's really impressive, considering how big the stage is. There's the usual use of gobos and movers, but what really interests me is the creative use of color, dark, and shadows. I watch it more for the lighting than for the awesome singing. But here's my gripe. The freakin' camera work is AWFUL AWFUL AWFUL!

I didn't see one camera view for more than 5 seconds. Most of the time the cameras were switched every 2 to 3 seconds. And every camera was moving. Far shot to close up, high to low, side to side. Once I counted 78 camera switches from the start of one song to the start of the next song, AND THAT WAS ON A SOLO! I felt like I was playing Grand Theft Auto. I don't know if it was the lousy camera work or the NyQuil, but I was getting nauseous trying to watch the show.

With the distracting "put-me-into-convulsions" camera work, I couldn't enjoy the atmosphere the lighting designer had created at all. Now I'm not looking for a "security camera" view, but how about less over-stimulation here. Do we have such short attention spans that we need to be visually stimulated every 3 seconds or we'll get bored?

I dare any of you to turn on the concert, turn off the volume, and try to see ANY of the lighting effects.

Now back to my NyQuil...

 

[Nelson]

Sorry to hear about the cold!

I haven't watched Celtic Woman yet, but I know exactly what you are talking about. That is one of my perpetual complaints about so many shows. By the time I figure out what I'm looking at, they switch angles! And a little motion is OK, but I really don't like every camera constantly moving. That really is annoying! What happened to the old rule of never panning or zooming during a shot?

I occasionally produce videos of shows that come through our auditorium. On the larger shows, I might have three cameras going at once. Unless a camera is following action, it doesn't move. If the camera operator moves to get a different angle, I switch to a different camera for several seconds first so that the viewer doesn't see the move. Seems simple enough to me!

 

[Van]

I think it's a combination of a "Young, edgy" director and Too many dollars available for him to rent the latest in robotic cameras and video switching gear. Just like with moving lights, just cause they can move doesn't mean they should.

 

[shiben]

a

I think it's a combination of a "Young, edgy" director and Too many dollars available for him to rent the latest in robotic cameras and video switching gear. Just like with moving lights, just cause they can move doesn't mean they should.

I doubt it. Film people seem to think that there is a time limit on how long you will look at a single shot and not get bored. I feel like its 5 seconds? Basically, if nothing happens, no graphic appears, no cut from one shot to another, you become more likely to change the channel, and thus lower their ratings. Its a thing that people do all the time and pretty much every show on TV will do this on some level, and I too find it a bit nauseating. Why not just produce quality content?

 

[Van]

I totally agree Shiben. I was trying to watch a video of the dance group 'Jabbawockeez' < if you haven't seen them.... They are amazing> Anywayevery one I found was from the tv show Americas next Dance Group or something like that. That were so freaking busy cutting between one camera and the next you couldn't appreciate the dancing.
Actually this thread could inspire a whole topical thread about "Where Arts collide" when the Camera director, Set designer and Lighting designer don't work in close harmony who get's to call what get's highlighted.
I think we all know that there are some realy talented camera directors/cinematographers, the subtle movement of a camera, the slight pull of focus the completely 'Makes' a scene. At what point does the 'Art' of the camera, start interfereing with the Art of Lighting, and the Art of Scenic Design.
As A TD I work with all sort of designers. I find it intersting that often, the designers that get 'critical acclaim' are the designers that do their own thing. Maybe they will design a light plot that is a point of focus. But I see others that design so that they reinforce the action of the play and create very subtle statements with colors, emphasis, or movement. Whose the Better designer ? Is Entertainment all about the Spectacle of the individual arts encompassed? or is it about a collaboration?
Sorry, jst finished lunch, must be a sugar high or something.....

 

[shiben]

I totally agree Shiben. I was trying to watch a video of the dance group 'Jabbawockeez' < if you haven't seen them.... They are amazing> Anywayevery one I found was from the tv show Americas next Dance Group or something like that. That were so freaking busy cutting between one camera and the next you couldn't appreciate the dancing.
Actually this thread could inspire a whole topical thread about "Where Arts collide" when the Camera director, Set designer and Lighting designer don't work in close harmony who get's to call what get's highlighted.
I think we all know that there are some realy talented camera directors/cinematographers, the subtle movement of a camera, the slight pull of focus the completely 'Makes' a scene. At what point does the 'Art' of the camera, start interfereing with the Art of Lighting, and the Art of Scenic Design.
As A TD I work with all sort of designers. I find it intersting that often, the designers that get 'critical acclaim' are the designers that do their own thing. Maybe they will design a light plot that is a point of focus. But I see others that design so that they reinforce the action of the play and create very subtle statements with colors, emphasis, or movement. Whose the Better designer ? Is Entertainment all about the Spectacle of the individual arts encompassed? or is it about a collaboration?
Sorry, jst finished lunch, must be a sugar high or something.....

I agree camera movement can be artful. However, it kind of comes to the point where when Im watching "so you think you can dance" it turns into a dizzying array of camera people on segways, booms, lifts, and high velocity flying tracks that it looks like whoever shoots it they should instead act in Spiderman...

 

[Pie4Weebl]

As I realized a long time ago, concert videos are more about the band than the lighting, and I think it shows the challenge guys who do lighting for TV shows or a DVD shoot have over lighting just for the audience.

Personally I love a more tightly shot show with lots of cuts. I'm a real sucker for the the big zoom snap to wide on the final hit of a song. That and I love crane in and out shots, especially over crowds.

I think its unfair to say people use that "to make up for" poor content, its just a style choice. Is it sometimes over done? sure, but by and large its pretty cool, and works well especially for concerts where you look at lots of different things at once.

//If it's too loud, you're too old!

 

[ptero]

a

I doubt it. Film people seem to think that there is a time limit on how long you will look at a single shot and not get bored. I feel like its 5 seconds? Basically, if nothing happens, no graphic appears, no cut from one shot to another, you become more likely to change the channel, and thus lower their ratings. Its a thing that people do all the time and pretty much every show on TV will do this on some level, and I too find it a bit nauseating. Why not just produce quality content?

I agree, too. Nauseating is right. In movies, I can't watch 'Moulin Rouge' because of this and 'Chicago' runs a close second as unwatchable. It destroys any semblance of becoming engaged in what's going on.

 

[shiben]

As I realized a long time ago, concert videos are more about the band than the lighting, and I think it shows the challenge guys who do lighting for TV shows or a DVD shoot have over lighting just for the audience.

Personally I love a more tightly shot show with lots of cuts. I'm a real sucker for the the big zoom snap to wide on the final hit of a song. That and I love crane in and out shots, especially over crowds.

I think its unfair to say people use that "to make up for" poor content, its just a style choice. Is it sometimes over done? sure, but by and large its pretty cool, and works well especially for concerts where you look at lots of different things at once.

//If it's too loud, you're too old!

It can work well. But if Im watching a show about dance, one would think the camera shots would really show you the dance nicely, rather than jumping around so much who knows if they executed half their moves very well? Or if Im watching a movie with a musical sequence in it, chance are I want to actually watch it, not see 50 jump cuts a minute. But if Im watching a band on youtube, hellz yeah, jump away, build excitement and interests with lots of camera movement. Celtic Women is not the kind of band that needs that though.

 

[Van]

It can work well. But if Im watching a show about dance, one would think the camera shots would really show you the dance nicely, rather than jumping around so much who knows if they executed half their moves very well? Or if Im watching a movie with a musical sequence in it, chance are I want to actually watch it, not see 50 jump cuts a minute. But if Im watching a band on youtube, hellz yeah, jump away, build excitement and interests with lots of camera movement. Celtic Women is not the kind of band that needs that though.

DUDE ! this is what I'm talking about. It's like the first time I was exposed to Dance lighting. I'm asking myself, " What's with a ll the side lights and High side lights etc. ?" Of course you're not going to install shin busters in a straight play so if you're filming dance, film the dance! don't indulge in your own mental masturbation of, " Wouldn't it be cool if we established here, then cut to a tight on dancer number 3, then a wide circular around tha whole group..." How about watching the choreography and blocking your camera moves off of that. But if your filming a hair band, Yeah do what you want.

 

[mstaylor]

I agree that many TV and movie directors are clueless when it comes to filming what is important. If you are watching a dance competition and you want to vote on the ensemble, you need to be able to see if they dance as a group. Ice skating is horrible about this, the announcers will say a particular jump is coming up and the TV shows closeups. Filming a concert, I agree you can move around more but if there is a solo, show him. It kills me when the guitar player is killing it and they are showing the keyboard. Listen to the music and react accordingly, or watch the followspots, they will take you to the solo.

 

[esmphoto]

YES! live events are (almost) always too"jumpy" like that, and I guess people are just used to it. Whenever I train a new operator on our video system the basics (switch slowly and at slow points in the piece, always put a wide shot in between your closeups so you dont loose perspective, you're not being paid by the transition but don't just leave in on cam1 the whole show either) always have to be hammered into them before they catch on.

Whenever we tape we have a master that has the cut from all the cameras and then a second tape that's just a static center shot from cam5

 

[TimMiller]

When I have gone to their concerts (definately an experience) I have not noticed this I think it is the tv stations crew who are used to get as many fast pased shots as possible. At their concerts they are slow moving until the violin player is jumping 3 feet of the deck dancing while playing but they are still smooth. They also transition to imag. I have to say they have their concerts have the most clearest audio I have heard. Nice crisp highs with heart thumping lows. Same visually with their lighting. They make use of the entire color spectrum in some of the most natural ways I have ever seen. You can tell every cue both by actor and crew are all carefully and thoughtfully planned.

 

[meatpopsicle]

Film people seem to think that there is a time limit on how long you will look at a single shot and not get bored. I feel like its 5 seconds? Basically, if nothing happens, no graphic appears, no cut from one shot to another, you become more likely to change the channel, and thus lower their ratings.

Massive generalization alert!!! And I would submit that it is Television executives you are referencing, not "film people" Cutting for cutting's sake is annoying to us "film people" too.

 

[len]

Due to the remote thumb twitch. Late at night I sit and watch tv. Not a show, but tv. I'll just mindlessly scroll through channels late at night. I think part of the jumpy editing comes as a way to keep people like me engaged. Although I doubt anything could keep me watching Celtic Women

 

[gbdesign]

Same thing goes for watching fireworks on TV. Every time I try to watch the Macy's 4th of July fireworks on TV the director makes such a godawful mess of the camera shots and cuts it becomes unwatchable. I want to see the fireworks, not an"artsie" zoom and dissolve between a close-up of a burst and a long shot of another display. And I certainly don't want to have to watch the crowd having a great time watching the fireworks. Just give me the fireworks.

 

[blackisthenewblack]

Its an Attention disorder, that we should all help to combat. In fact we need a telethon and Commercials for the debilitating disease known as "ADOS".






Attention Deficit OOOO Shiny!

 

[ship]

Sorry - I provided the spare lamps on what which I wouldn't watch. Just another show but the sides of the truck tralers were amazing one must admit.

Ok, that's one form of heck (He!!) in being too sick to change the channel and on tv not being able to study what gel or lights were in use. That's a bad form of sick in not being able to operate the remote. (Got this oak channel changer holder I made for our bed - works perfect for two of the controllers - the other I with effort in making it stay, I glued a spring clip to it.) I'm never in bed out of reach of a tv controller.

None the less, I take your Celtic Women and raise you with Irish Step Dancers. Talk about pull what hair you have or in decreasing it out of your head and in a way of every night during a dance show where one might think of other options such as totally dark during the presentation...... Yea worse things in life than watching them than working the show. Step dancer's of that type with no design or want of doing it but working the show, only limited to the amount of pain spent during verses watching the entire show while stuck on pin rail as the only one back stage of staff should there be a problem thus have to be there and not even attempt to sleep or escape during it. Stuck with Irish step dancers on stage - especially a few of them during any one show... my own (he!!) worse than something on TV.

Worst thing I ever worked a show on in multitude in hating endlessly and having way too much experience with.