Chainhoists?

[Anvilx]

It seems that every theater I work in has dead hung electrics. Thinking about it I end up spending hours upon hours because I am trying to hang all of my instruments using a ladder. In a perfect world, I feel like a pair or so of chain hoists would significantly speed up my hang time. The issue I see with chain hoists is that they are expensive if you buy one that is motorized and the manual chain hoists are generally a bit short. Am I looking in the wrong places? Is there a good solution to my problem that is also super economical?

 

[sk8rsdad]

My theatre has a 33 ft proscenium and 30' vertical lift from deck to rafters. When my theatre evaluated rigging alternatives we decided on line shaft winches. We justified motorizing based on safety and setup effort. Being all-volunteer, labour doesn't factor into the cost/benefit analysis. If you have any labour expenses at all, then motorized rigging could pay for itself in a very short time.

Chain is more expensive than wire rope. A single motor is less expensive than multiple chain hoists. Pipe is less expensive than truss. Our cost per batten, installed was around $14,000. Depending on the span and height of your grid chain hoist might be the better alternative.

By the time you sort out the electrical servicing you may be better off with an integrated system from JR Clancy, ETC, or the other vendors that offer turnkey packages.

 

[bishopthomas]

Is there a good solution to my problem that is also super economical?

Nope. Hoists are expensive. However, you can go for the lowest rated hoist that will do the job for you. CM makes a 1/4 ton version of the Lodestar that should be enough for basic theatre lighting. If you're adding motors to all of your electrics you may want to invest in a motor controller. This is not at all cheap but will save you a ton of time and headache.

 

[Footer]

The other issue with chain hoists in a permanent install is getting power to each motor. If you decide to go "motor down" like we do in the entertainment world you are stuck with control/power cables swagging off the pipe. If you go motor up you have to install a lot of power on your grid. If you do go hoists, it is much cheaper to install truss so you have fewer hoists.

If you have ever done a show with truss flown in a theater it is very annoying to work around. Truss eats up four or five linesets of flyspace, sometimes more. A traditional electric eats up 3. Those two linesets can make all the difference.

 

[MPowers]

Chain hoists are not the answer. Clew winch systems can be less expensive than manual counter weight systems in many cases and have the added element of safety. No ladders for hanging or striking or running cable. No weight to handle by inexperienced stagehands or students, no possibility of run-a-way line sets due to improper loading, etc.

There are several options that can be less expensive than chain hoists, working from simplest/cheapest to complex/expensive. Cost of Counterweight systems usually fall between options 3, 4 & 5.

1. Hand cranked Clew winch system Thern Stage Equipment | Clew Winch Systems
2. Drill operated clew winch system, same as above but powered by a Milwaukee 2404 1-1/4" drill. One motor for any number of line sets, no permanent electrical installation, very economical.
3. motorized clew winch set. Same as above but each set has a factory installed motor
4. Pile wind winch system. http://www.thernstage.com/assets/files/Downloads/Thern/PilewindSystems.pdf
5. Line shaft hoist system http://www.thernstage.com/assets/files/Downloads/Thern/LineShaft.pdf
6. Package hoists such as Vortek, Powerlift, Zero Fleet Angle, Stinger, ETC.

If you are serious about this and I think you should be, Contact Texas Scenic, TSC - Theatrical Stage Equipment ask for Roy Harline and tell him I sent you. In Texas terms they are fairly close, located in San Antonio and IIRC the closest dealer/installer to you.

Michael Powers, Project Manager
ETCP Certified Rigger - Theatre
Central Lighting & Equipment Inc.
675 NE 45th Place, Des Moines, Iowa, 50313

 

[Footer]

Its a stop gap, but in many places a rolling scaffold tower or a scissor lift will fix 80% of the ladder problem. When we purchased our scaffolding it cut our light hang time in half. Having a scissor lift will cut your hang/focus time more then in half and greatly increase safety. They are expensive but much cheaper then automating one or two linesets. If your floor can support it, it is the answer.

 

[Sony]

I've got to agree with Footer here, your simplest solution would be scaffolding, it's cheap and easy. We use scaffolding for all of the grid work in the theatre's at NNHS and it is much faster than using ladders.

 

[Footer]

I've got to agree with Footer here, your simplest solution would be scaffolding, it's cheap and easy. We use scaffolding for all of the grid work in the theatre's at NNHS and it is much faster than using ladders.

I bought our scafolding 6 months ago for 1200 bucks. It is a 16' tall tower (you can reach our 22' high grid without issue) with railings, 4 decks, and casters. Not a bad deal IMO.

 

[MercyTech]

A good set of rolling scaffolding will also help you prep and repair sets as well. The advantage of having more than one set of hands in a high location is a real benefit.

 

[Anvilx]

I've got to agree with Footer here, your simplest solution would be scaffolding, it's cheap and easy. We use scaffolding for all of the grid work in the theatre's at NNHS and it is much faster than using ladders.

I wish I could use scaffolding, but it wouldn't be realistic to use. Here is an example of the kind of set I am dealing with.

That would be Les Mis, in a cafatorium.
Notice the is a curved ramp in the middle of the photo.
The director for that show absolutely loves multi level sets.

The other aspect of it is that I am looking for something that I could use in different spaces, for shows that I do outside of school.

Hmm, what about some kind of a block and tackle?

 

[RonaldBeal]

>>"Chain is more expensive than wire rope. A single motor is less expensive than multiple chain hoists. Pipe is less expensive than truss. Our cost per batten, installed was around $14,000"

Chain hoists are definitaly competetive, compared to linesets.
The reason they all are expensive is liability, and testing.
List price for a 1-ton 16fpm is around $2000, with street prices close to $1500
chain lists for $12 per foot. Even at full price, and $3000 for control and cabling, 3 CM's and a truss and rigging steel are still cheaper than that $14,000 lineset.

 

[mrcog]

Well then a flown grid isnt going too help you becuase you would'nt be able too lower the grid to rig your electrics! Why cant you get your rig up and powered before set goes in? Focusing on a ladder can be just as fast as by scaff tower assuming you've got two ladders and enough crew too focus and foot the ladders at the same time

James

 

[Anvilx]

But I don't have two ladders and I don't have much if any of a crew. Since it is mostly just me I have to hang and then focus later or play the up and down run over to the console game. The focus is easy the hang is a PITA! There are only 24 hardwired dimmers 6 per electric with 2 FOH and 2 onstage, per the size of the stage it really isn't an ideal. So it ends up being a huge mess of cables to produce something that looks half way decent. I would hang in advance but the set is "constantly evolving", aka they aren't organized enough to tell me what is going to look like, and even if they do tell me it doesn't look anything like what they said. For a lot of my bigger shows I am hanging 2x 15' spans of 1 1/2" pipe for a third foh electric.

What did they use before chainhoists?

 

[mstaylor]

What they did before is linesets. You could still hang a ballpark light rig, all cabled, before the set, then adjust a few lights with a ladder. It could still be frustrating but less work in the longrun.

 

[derekleffew]

... What did they use before chainhoists?

What they did before is linesets. ...

For theatre, yes. Initially hemp and sandbag and later counterweight fly systems.

However, Rock and Roll Shows were deemed "not artistically worthy" to perform in opera houses, civic auditoria, or similar venues, and thus were relegated to gymnasia and sports arenas. Early R&R lighting pioneers (Chip Monck, Bob See, Bill McManus, et al) of the 1960s took triangular antenna truss (Rohn tower), laid it on its side, and raised it with chain hoists re-purposed from the material handing industry. So the CM Lodestar basically created the touring lighting industry. Before it, fixtures were hung one unit at a time, on whatever structure the venue possessed.

 

[cdcarter]

I think people are overlooking that you are considering temporarily installing chainhoists on a per-electric basis, and then once hoisting them back up, putting them back in dead hung position.

This raises some major safety concerns. Will two chainhoists be able to properly fly in and out your electric? Depending on the length, it could bow a lot. Will you be able to safely and quickly get the chain onto the electric and then remove it's standard rigging? Will you be able to make this changeover back? Are these electrics pre-circuited? If so, how much extra mult is there hanging off? Enough to bring it into the stage?

There are some major safety issues here.

 

[Anvilx]

Oh no, I wasn't going to switch between dead hung and the chainhoists for a whole electric. I was planning on using it for a smaller spans, that would be hung specificly on an as needed basis.