Church Lighting Upgrade

[Searchlight]

Hi Folks --
My church is looking to upgrade the lights for the platform area. Currently, there are four "outdoor security" style PAR fixtures controlled by wall switches. We would like to install some proper lighting. We do one dramatic production per year, around Christmas time. The rest of the year we just need to provide white light for services.
The ceiling has massive wood beams running from the side walls up to the peak of the roof. The side walls are 10', and the peak is 23'6", so it's a 34* angle. The building is 40' wide. The first beam is 15' from the front of the platform, and the second beam is 15' behind that.
Hanging the lights
My first idea is to mount two pipes on the platform side of the first beam, angled along the The throw to the platform would range from 17'to 26' depending on the point along the beam and the platform. We have an engineer and an electrician in the congregation, so I will consult them, but I wanted to try not to re-invent the wheel--they don't necessarily know specifics about theater lighting. How would you mount the pipe? How much space should we leave between the pipe and the beam, and between the pipe and the ceiling? The ceiling is knotty pine. Maybe better to ask how much space between the _lights_ and the beam / ceiling. Or should we hang the lights another way?
Dimmers
There's no access to the area between the knotty pine ceiling and the shingles, so whatever electrical cables we run up there will have to be done on the surface. There are already four separate runs going up there, so it would be nice if we didn't have to run additional wire along the beam. Splitting the four runs out to four separate circuits would not be a problem. My thought was to possibly use shoebox dimmers mounted on the beam powered by the four existing circuits, then all we would have to run within the room would be the DMX cable. Is this an ok idea? If so, what kind of dimmers should we think about? Money is tight, but I can make a case based on equipment lifespan / reliability to move up a little from the very cheapest stuff. It's not clear to me how to differentiate between Elation, Chauvet, NSI, and ETC. Obviously ETC are more, and the NSIs have a range of prices -- Are some more reliable than others? Obviously that's the hottest part of the room, and the lights will be right there to make it hotter.

Also, are they going to make noise? Hung right on the beam within the room, if they make appreciable noise that will be less than ideal.

Thanks so much for any / all ideas or comments!

 

[FatherMurphy]

Most of the shoebox dimmers are convection cooled, so there is little if any noise coming from them. Some brands or designs may buzz a little at certain settings/loads, but it would only be noticeable during the most silent parts of the service.

Generally, conventional theater lights rarely get more than 200 degrees F along their exteriors, so as long as you aren't actually touching wood, there's little danger of charring or igniting your building. Most people would be pretty comfortable with a 6" air gap between fixture and structure. Unistrut channels might be an option for mounting the lights, instead of pipe, depending on your exact situation, although the weight of the yoked-out fixture will create more of a lever-arm load on the strut/pipe than a straight-down-hung one would. Then again, the glue-lam beams are your best bet for attachment, there often isn't a lot of thickness in the roof itself, and too-long lag bolts might pierce through the shingles and create leaks.

You might consider upping the budget enough for LED fixtures - they'd be higher cost per unit, but you wouldn't need to buy dimmers, and power consumption would be a lot lower, and you'd get instant color choices, without getting out a ladder. Just beware of the lower end LED's outputs... I've noticed a pretty direct ratio between dollars and photons, the more you spend, the brighter the instrument.

 

[derekleffew]

... Generally, conventional theater lights rarely get more than 200 degrees F along their exteriors, ...

From http://www.etcconnect.com/community...ngs-how-much-heat-does-the-source-4-emit.aspx :

Surface Temperatures
Note: The following temperatures are normalized for the maximum of 45°C (113°F) ambient room temp, with free air convection.

• S4/S4 Zoom/750w
  
  • Lamp Focus Knob: 210°C (410°F) max.
  • Exterior Rear Housing Skin: 217°C (423°F) max.
  • Exterior Front Barrel Skin: 91°C (196°F)

• S4jr/S4jr Zoom/575w

• Lamp Focus Knob: 210°C (410°F) max.
• Exterior Rear Housing Skin: 235°C (455°F) max.
• Exterior Front Barrel Skin: 110°C (230°F)

S4PAR-MCM/575w

• Lamp Cap Handle: 185°C (365°F) max.
  
• Reflector Fins: 270°C (518°F) max.
• Exterior Front Barrel Skin: 175° (347°F) max.

Still less than 451°F, so I would agree that as long as the luminaires are not touching wood ...

As for Conventional vs. LED, see this recent thread: http://www.controlbooth.com/threads/small-potentially-portable-stage-lighting.34093/ . Much debate over whether or not LED fixtures, especially the less-expensive ones, are good enough to eliminate entirely the need for incandescent lamps for stage lighting.

What is the budget again?

 

[lwinters630]

First of all, why should God settle for second best. I am not talking about cadillacs, but determine what it will take to do the job right.

Next, determine the type of fixture. A source 4 elipsoidal vs. source 4 par will do very different things for you. Your local supplier will be happy to demo both. How many zones do you news to light.
Next, power. It will take one 20 amp circuit for every three source 4 fixtures in simple math. Check with your electrician.

There are several ways to mount them, but safety is number one. Again your local theatre supplier will help you pick the right brackets to mount the pipe. A 1.5 inch black (gas) pipe may work. Then check with engineer before drilling into beams or ceilings. Don't forget safety cables.
Finally, control. I would consider who will be turning on lights during the week. Volunteers, or custodial staff. Make it user friendly, perhaps a used ETC express with easy sliders yet programing capabilities for special events.

You are probably looking at around $5,000 with fixtures, console, pipe, mounts and dmx.

To get more specific I would need to see the space. Perhaps there are some CB members in your area that could stop by?

 

[BillConnerFASTC]

You'd be better off developing a plan for LED and perhaps a few quartz with local dimmers to start. Lack of good access for relamping and color changes, along with no existing power infrastructure and no idea if the hvac is designed to handle the substantial cooling load of quartz and dimmers. Not to mention electrical and cooling savings down the road. Cobbling together modest priced quartz and shoe box dimmers is not good stewardship imho.

I'll add that if forced to go quartz, you couldn't do much better and simpler than ETC's smart bar - the 20 amp 4 circuit bar with 4 575 units - probably mostly S4 pars but some S4 profiles - since a bar with for units can be fed by a single 20 amp circuit and the units can mount to the bar so you only have to hang the bat - a couple of thread rods or other - just two points. Avoid DMX wiring and go wireless. Very low install costs should offset the slightly higher material costs and you'll have good quality gear that could easily be used elsewhere in a future project.

 

[JD]

I would be a proponent of having two systems. One, a simple "one switch" that gets the place lit, then a second simple LED system for production lighting. If your standard lighting is now PAR38, then there are some very nice 2700k pars that really kick and only draw 17 watts. Here is a link about a conversion I did this last year for house lighting- http://www.trinityambler.com/property/green.html
As for the shows, that's a whole other subject and would involve assessing the specific church's needs. There are a lot of grants available for going with an LED system that are worth looking at. Recently, there has been discussion about if/any cost savings can be had from using LEDs for theater and the general answer is if you expect to recoup system cost through energy savings, forget it!
Still, there are other reasons LEDs might work better such as, no gels, long life, etc. (Although you still have to aim them!) There are many discussions on the boards here about them, search around a bit! Good luck!

 

[BillConnerFASTC]

Recently, there has been discussion about if/any cost savings can be had from using LEDs for theater and the general answer is if you expect to recoup system cost through energy savings, forget it!

Electrical energy. Cooling also uses energy and it is significant.

 

[sk8rsdad]

Recently, there has been discussion about if/any cost savings can be had from using LEDs for theater and the general answer is if you expect to recoup system cost through energy savings, forget it!

Be careful generalizing. The discussion in question arose from data collected at a single performance venue which was housed in what appears to be a large campus. Usage patterns and location will vary as will any savings.

 

[Searchlight]

Thanks for all the responses so far!

There's not a specific budget. But I doubt we have anywhere near the money to do the whole thing with LEDs. I figured we'd have to use PAR cans for wash and a few ellipsoidials for specific needs in the drama. The platform area to be lit is 18' wide and 7' deep. The drama may also use the area in front of the platform, either on the floor, or with a temporary extention built off the front of the platform. That area is about 30' wide and 8' deep. The straight-line throw to the platform is 17'-26' from the first beam, depending on how high on the beam and how deep on the platform. But, the angles are too steep from the first beam to the area in front of the platform, so we probably have to mount some lights on the second beam. The throw from there to the front area is 24'-34'.

Based on the throws, it didn't seem like we would need tons of power, so I was thinking about smaller fixtures, no bigger than 575.

Looking in other threads, it seemed to me that folks were saying that for pure white light, LEDs still weren't necessarily the way to go for natural skin tones, and we will be using white light 51 weeks out of the year -- is this still accurate?

There are separate lights for the house, so we don't have to worry about that right now -- this is only the platform and the Christmas production.

I've been told we can run extra circuits if needed, there is plenty of power available. The idea of hanging the dimmers was to minimize the visible cable run, since we don't really have a way to hide it. Access to the pipe/fixtures/dimmers and re-lamping isn't a big deal, it's only 23'6" to the peak, so we can easily put a ladder up there. The limitation is that we cannot get above the ceiling, it's solid from there to the shingles.

Is there a problem mounting a pipe on a slant following the line of the wood beam? You see vertical pipes, assumedly a slanted pipe would be ok from the fixture's standpoint.

Any other ideas on brackets for attaching pipe to wood? It seems like most of what's out there is for metal.

Father Murphy indicated that noise from dimmers shouldn't be a problem. If we use dimmers, how would I choose between Elation, Chauvet, ETC, and all the NSI/Leviton models?

 

[BillESC]

An RGBAW LED fixture can give you very acceptable flesh tones. The advantages outweigh going with conventional fixtures IMHO.

 

[bishopthomas]

out weigh

Hahaha. You said, "out weigh..."

 

[gafftaper]

Elation/Chauvet/NSI/Leviton are all on the same level in my book. I would never install any of them in a critical professional environment with lots of use. However in a small church installation where they are getting used a few hours a week they can be fine. I put set of Elation Cyber Pak dimmers in a church about 3 years ago. They get 6-10 hours of use per week and they are still doing just fine, not bad for a $250 dimmer pack. We went into that purchase with lowered expectations. These are $250 dimmers. They are here to get you through for a few years, they won't last forever, and when they break you will throw them out and buy something else (perhaps the same, perhaps higher quality, depending on your budget at the time). They continue to do their job well and have exceeded everyone's expectations for durability. They would probably be just fine for your simple use too.

I did a lighting system for a small rental banquet hall a few years ago (wedding receptions, birthday parties, and a church every Sunday). Those lights were going to be getting 20-30 hours of use in an average week. I didn't trust the cheaper products above but ETC was out of the budget range. So I put in the Leprecon ULD dimmers They cost around $600-$700 per pack if memory serves but have a lot of advantages over the low budget models. Good products, lots of bang for the buck, a much higher build quality inside and out than the list above. They are a solid middle ground between the lower budget Elation/Chauvet/NSI/Levitons and the ETC options. If you can afford them they will provide much more reliable service for a longer time to come over the budget dimmers, but again you simply may not need them.

ETC is the best. The have the best service. They will last forever. If there is a repair problem they will be easy to get fixed. But in your situation it sounds like you don't need that.

Personally I would shoot for a combination installation. Put a couple of Elation or Leprecon dimmer packs across the front with some Source Fours ellipsoidals. Then put some cheaper LED fixtures over the top and sides for lots of color. When the pastor comes up you get nice white light. For worship band/choir/plays you can have lots of great color from the top/sides. The other great thing is that you don't need really high quality LED's for your application. Whatever house brand Chinese LED your local dealer carries will be fine for giving you lots of color overhead. Don't buy them on Ebay, buy them from a dealer you can trust who has a vested interest in making sure you have a good experience with your discount LEDs. Talk to your local dealer and get some demos. Do you need help finding a dealer to work with? Tell us where you are and we will try to give you suggestions.

 

[BillESC]

Hahaha. You said, "out weigh..."

Excuse me. You're how old?

 

[Searchlight]

Elation/Chauvet/NSI/Leviton are all on the same level in my book.

Leprecon ULD dimmers ... are a solid middle ground between the lower budget Elation/Chauvet/NSI/Levitons and the ETC options.

Personally I would shoot for a combination installation...

Do you need help finding a dealer to work with? Tell us where you are and we will try to give you suggestions.

Gafftaper, that's exactly the kind of perspective I needed. Thank you so much!

We are in the Washington, DC area. I'd welcome suggestions for dealers, especially folks that will understand having a smaller budget.

 

[BillESC]

Searchlight, I'm about 2 hours south of you and would be happy to discuss your options.

 

[MikeJ]

Electrical energy. Cooling also uses energy and it is significant.

But it's not wasted energy if they are in a cold climate, and we don't know where this church is located.

 

[MikeJ]

We rented some of those ULD dimmers. They work really well, and don't make any noise. They did not play well with Chauvet LEDs on the same dmx line though.(random flashing). We ran another line from the spliter and it was fine.

 

[BillConnerFASTC]

But it's not wasted energy if they are in a cold climate, and we don't know where this church is located.

Even in heating climates auditoriums frequently need to be cooled, not heated.

 

[zmb]

Don't underestimate the heating capability of an auditorium full of people who also drive humidity up. Its winter here which normally means temps in the 40s to 50s, and the AC will still be running.

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