Control/Dimming Controllable LED house lights

[dreamist]

Certainly existing installs that are not more than 20 or 25 years old will predominantly not be changing in out. Likewise most existing chandeliers of note and similar significant lighting, may be retrofitted with new mains dimmers. New build however is becoming primarily solid state. We use to put 2 to 5 - 96 way dimmer racks in a high school, and in last 3 to 4 years probably not more than a 24 dimmer panel, with portable solo dimmers for 30-40% of the theatrical. (We are stuck on orchestra shells where the initial cost doesn't yet justify savings.) But going LED for house and work is a no brained, more than paid for by just whatever the cost of relamping is - catwalks, hoists, tracks, or maybe just labor and falls if no provisions are made.

That seems like a tiny number of dimmers for a theatrical space, even given LED equipment and movers which use constant 110 or 208.. How are you getting away with such a small dimmer package?

On the LED house/work light side -- which fixtures do you tend to use for those installs? I'm in the position of being interested in replacing (not retrofitting) my house and work lighting, so it would be interesting to know which fixtures you tend to use in those roles..

Thanks!

 

[JChenault]

Certainly existing installs that are not more than 20 or 25 years old will predominantly not be changing in out. Likewise most existing chandeliers of note and similar significant lighting, may be retrofitted with new mains dimmers. New build however is becoming primarily solid state. We use to put 2 to 5 - 96 way dimmer racks in a high school, and in last 3 to 4 years probably not more than a 24 dimmer panel, with portable solo dimmers for 30-40% of the theatrical. (We are stuck on orchestra shells where the initial cost doesn't yet justify savings.) But going LED for house and work is a no brained, more than paid for by just whatever the cost of relamping is - catwalks, hoists, tracks, or maybe just labor and falls if no provisions are made.

Bill

I was thinking in terms of architectural, not theatrical use.

In your experience what technology is being used for non theatrical, architectural, LED dimming? Is it DMX or some other protocall - or what?

 

[Jay Ashworth]

There seems an important question here to me, that I don't know that I see anyone addressing here exactly:

If one decides to replace one's architectural par cans for down lighting with entire replacement LED luminaires, are there in fact such fixtures which will provide a decent curve and a very small bump in or out... when still used with the already existing mains dimming?

Cause if you don't get anything from replacing the luminaires, why do it?

This is, of course, even worse if your mains dimming is just a dimmer control in the booth, rather than something in a dimmer pack.

Sent from my SPH-L720

 

[sk8rsdad]

Fixture replacement with dimmable LED involves bypassing the mains dimming and providing an alternate control signal, typically DMX or 0-10V analog.

Some of the premium dimmable LED fixtures use proprietary wireless mesh where each fixture has an integrated transceiver.

You would think somebody would get around to building a retrofit fixture that used A10, UPB, ethernet over powerline + sACN or some such. Maybe they exist but if so their marketing department should be fired.

Every now and then I prod ETC to consider an ethernet over powerline version of the D20 or CC20 as a retrofit option for both architectural and theatrical fixtures. Maybe some day...

 

[Jay Ashworth]

So, IOW, my reading of - I think it was Bill's posting - suggestinf that that was an approach, was wrong; there's no way to do this without the notably higher difficulty level tasks of pulling control wiring and rewiring the power feed to the current luminaires.

Got it.

Sent from my SPH-L720

 

[dreamist]

Fixture replacement with dimmable LED involves bypassing the mains dimming and providing an alternate control signal, typically DMX or 0-10V analog.

Some of the premium dimmable LED fixtures use proprietary wireless mesh where each fixture has an integrated transceiver.

And when folks do it this way and run DMX and constant line voltage to each luminaire, which fixtures do they tend to use? Searching the web for applicable fixtures returns a wide variety of (mostly not relevant) results, so I'm wondering what new installs tend to use.. I mean, I see the Selecon PL house light that runs for around $1,500 per fixture, but I'm assuming not everyone uses those ;-)

 

[RickR]

I'm seeing more fixtures suitable for house lights all the time. The big names in recessed lighting are starting to make 6000-12,000 lumen fixtures with DMX or high end (1%) drivers. Lithonia, Juno, Prescolite and expecting to see Halo and Lightolier any day now. These are the folk that made a lot of 500W recessed that are being replaced.

Prices so far are all $1000 and up, way up!

Of course next month it will all change again!

 

[BillConnerFASTC]

That seems like a tiny number of dimmers for a theatrical space, even given LED equipment and movers which use constant 110 or 208.. How are you getting away with such a small dimmer package?

On the LED house/work light side -- which fixtures do you tend to use for those installs? I'm in the position of being interested in replacing (not retrofitting) my house and work lighting, so it would be interesting to know which fixtures you tend to use in those roles..

Thanks!

Let me repeat that the "tiny number of dimmers" is generally for the architectural loads - vestibules, control rooms, and mostly orchestra shells - where we can't find suitable and economically justifiable LED fixtures. Also, as I noted, 30-40% of the theatre lighting is quartz and we use a solo dimmer - either the Strand Bak-Pak or the ETC S4 dimmer. In addition, there are 1, 2, or 3 rellay panels, for LED, work, and such. We think we have systems theatre equivalent to a 2-4 rack system with 150 focusing quartz units. You could question the predominantly quarts front of house with portable solo dimmers, but we believe in a new building in 2014, that before the infrastructure should be worn out that these quartz and solos will be replaced by something that requires constant power and data, not a big honking dimmer located a long ways away.

 

[BillConnerFASTC]

Bill

I was thinking in terms of architectural, not theatrical use.

In your experience what technology is being used for non theatrical, architectural, LED dimming? Is it DMX or some other protocall - or what?

I understand, but I think of house and work and lobby around a space for performing arts - or worship space - as architectural. I also see entire schools - of which my part is a small part - going all LED. Not sure I answered you but would ask, where in the non-theatre world do you need theatre like dimming - a true fade to and from full off without bumps and such? Or are you saying retro-fit LEDs on a mains dimmer is just fine for mood lighting in a lounge because you don't need to fade to full off smoothly?

 

[BillConnerFASTC]

This is what happens on a busy day and not being able to glance at CB, so sorry if I'm repeating, but if you change fixtures to LED fixtures that dim, you bypass the dimmer - maybe putting in a constant module if it's available or by some rewiring - and you distribute data. We lean towards a robust DMX - RDM actually - distribution but wireless is an option - I think GDS is a mesh network - don't know if it's their proprietary network or someone else's open protocol - and the Strand PL house light uses basic wireless DMX. We so far have not found running a piece of cat 5 from fixture to fixture for the DMX to be that expensive or that much of a problem - but yes - its work - but much less than replacing the fixture.

We used Affineons but no longer; we have a couple with Altman's Chalice; a whole slew with Gotham's Incito line; and one with the Starnd PL fresnel - inexpensive by comparison, easy, and the user likes the color options. But we are constantly looking at samples - hung on a stage with proper DMX and good illuminance meters, and keeping records. We also frequently arrange for shoot outs for clients - and you learn a lot by having 5 or 6 side by side. We have two new ones we want to test. Some are real disappoints. And I've never really trusted sales reps much but when it comes to LED - not at all.

 

[Dionysus]

Bill

I was thinking in terms of architectural, not theatrical use.

In your experience what technology is being used for non theatrical, architectural, LED dimming? Is it DMX or some other protocall - or what?

In non theatrical (or such) settings I have NEVER SEEN DMX. Be it an art gallery or doctors office the LED Dimmers are generally controlled by 0-10V, however sometimes by way of a propriety protocol of sorts. Most architectural LED fixtures are available with a "dimming" ballast option, with a 0-10V control input option.

 

[Jay Ashworth]

I've spent some time ib ceilings, Bill, and it would be my assertion that replacing luminaires in holes would be somewhere between easier and quite-a-bit-easier than also stringing new control cable, depending on the ceiling treatment, of course.

Sent from my SPH-L720

 

[BillConnerFASTC]

I've spent some time ib ceilings, Bill, and it would be my assertion that replacing luminaires in holes would be somewhere between easier and quite-a-bit-easier than also stringing new control cable, depending on the ceiling treatment, of course.

Sent from my SPH-L720

Sorry. Nearly every room I've worked in is exposed structure or just suspended clouds. The exception is historic but can't recall one where you couldn't get to and move around above the ceiling. I suppose I've seen some newer (post WW II) buildings where there are ceilings that require access from below, but it still seems like getting the scaffolding in to change out 40 fixtures is most the work and fishing a piece of cat 5 between adjacent fixtures would not be much more work.

 

[Jay Ashworth]

One of my two houses has bolted seats, and though the fixtures are exposed, they're on 5ft pendants up above sonic squares. 20ft trim there.

The other is a converted church, movable seats, but the ceiling is the roof.

I'm sure those don't constitute a statistical universe... but they're probably not /that/ uncommon either.

Sent from my SPH-L720

 

[BillConnerFASTC]

One of my two houses has bolted seats, and though the fixtures are exposed, they're on 5ft pendants up above sonic squares. 20ft trim there.

The other is a converted church, movable seats, but the ceiling is the roof.

I'm sure those don't constitute a statistical universe... but they're probably not /that/ uncommon either.

Sent from my SPH-L720

Not sure what a sonic square is (assume not the group which "offers a musical variety of rock, blues, soul and pop from the past five decades.") but assume transparent since lights are above them? "Ceiling is roof" is usually same as exposed structure, in that there is no continuous ceiling membrane hiding stuff, including structural framing and roof deck. Actually, the sonic square room sounds like exposed structure also - with some sort of cloud.

 

[Jay Ashworth]

Sorry; was on phone. The Hickman has pyramidal hard-surfaced sound bouncing structures suspended from the steel; the luminaires (just par cans) are on 4 or 5 foot pendants, and just peek out below the surfaces of those sound tiles, so not only do you have to work 20 ft up, over bolted seats, but you have to work *in between all those tiles*, which are 4 ft square... or pull them down. If you could *just* replace the cans, you wouldn't have to fight much with the rest of the structure.

In the PAC, the 25ft peak vaulted ceiling was a church, and has a standard, presumably gypsum, smooth ceiling with the downlights flush mounted.

Again, I know all rooms are different, but it seems to me you're asserting that pulling control cable to replacement luminaires is of nominal difficulty, delta or epsilon, and it's my perception that yours may come from evaluating a limited set of exemplars.

 

[BillConnerFASTC]

Well, if I found the right Hickman Theatre http://www.opac.osceola.k12.fl.us/images/Photo-Gallery/Theatre/Auditorium10-R9a15.jpg it would seem easy to run a piece of black plenum rated cat 5 from replaced fixture to replaced fixture while replacing them and certainly much less costly than adding a wireless option, but YMMV. I'd guess the cost of all the cable and installation is about the cost of one fixture replaced. I'm guessing those are 500 w cans so some limitation. First choice would be GDS - the ArcSystem Pro 8 Cell - with wireless option - around $2500 per unit plus install. A more economical option would be an Incito cylinder at around $1000 each and wire. I think you can but in $2 worth of wire per fixture for a lot less than $1500 per fixture.

No conduit, so pulling is a kind of generic term in this case.

 

[SteveB]

I was recently in contact with a Montreal, CA firm called Lumenpulse. They do all kinds of LED architectural fixtures, some of which are line voltage and have their control signal piggybacked on the line voltage. The control end can take DMX if using that control system. One of the facilities renovated is the Buckley music recital hall at Amherst College, in MA. I talked to the facility TD who indicated he was very happy with the control response of this technology. It's something we are currently exploring.

As a one-to-one fixture replacement, not having to run control infrastructure is a significant savings, though I'm told the actual fixtures are expensive. Seems intriguing.

http://www.lumenpulse.com/en/